fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #605 ]

⌈ Secret Post #605 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 17 pages, 401 secrets from Secret Submission Post #087.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - too big ], [ 1 2 - too small ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 4 - direct links please ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Consistently calling a female character a "bitch" is sexist. Under any circumstances.

You can argue her motivations all you like-- I'll probably disagree with you, but we're both entitled to our interpretations. However "bitch" is a sexist term used to degrade a woman who steps out of line. Regardless of whether you think she's abusive, overbearing or any other negative traits, it's never not sexist to randomly slap a woman with that label.

Unless the poster is a girl. Because, if I remember high school correctly, girls throw around 'bitch' to describe the most obvixiously bratty of the brats, and it's insulting, but it's not taken as sexist. Kinda like how black people use 'nigger,' or gays can throw 'queer' around without much fuss.

...seriously dude, I think you're just a little too quick to pull out the 'sexist' card. Sometimes anger is just anger, and angry words are just angry words, and it doesn't have a damn thing to do with anybody's politcal issues.

Uhm, no. "Bitch" is sexist whether used by a male or female, especially when used in a derogatory manner. If used in a closed group, with people who know not to take offense then maybe maybe it can be considered not offensive. But once you leave your small, sequestered group of friends, you can most certainly be called out for it.

The personal is political, mousy. We are steeped in our politics every day, and they affect the words we choose to use.

Hm...well, seeing as you're the only person in that I've ever met who's ever enspoused such a view - both about poltics and the term as being anything more than just plain, insulting, derogatory slang - I'm gonna have to call bullshit and just walk away from this argument.

Also, you're taking things *way* too personally. Not everything is about feminist v. non-feminists, you know.

Somehow I doubt I'm the only one who's ever mentioned this (actually, definitely not, since it's a common concept that's based in the Women's Lib movement of the 60s and 70s.) The personal is the political.

I'm also not taking it personally. I was pointing out something you clearly said and explained how it was sexist. That's how it works,

geministar01. By the way, you might want to avoid uploading your secrets to your own photobucket account next time.

Edited 2008-09-01 22:58 (UTC)

I still disagree with you, though. It's an insult, yes, but I don't find it to be particularly sexist. It's used to denote, as the dictionary says, "a malicious, unpleasant, selfish person, esp. a woman." Which Spoiler clearly is, in the opinion of the post. As it is an effective insult to be used in rage - similiar, I might point out, to insults such as 'bastard' are used for men, and without having the overly-promsicuous implications of 'slut' or 'whore' - it's only apppropriate.

And, considering that you latched on to the one little thing and completely ignored the context of the secret and the actual meaning of the word, I'd say you *are* taking it personally. Tunnel vision, much?

Here's a question: would you use "bitch" to describe Bruce, Jason, or Dick? Because all of them embody some of the same qualities you don't like about Steph. Being abusive, neglectful, selfish. I mean, Seph is basically exactly like Jason but female.

- curious anon is curious.

Possibly. I'd lean more towards 'bastard' for them, though, which I attribute as being more of the masculine equivalent of bitch, the same way that you wouldn't call a male horse a mare, or a female cow a bull. I have seen people call them bitches (outside of slash fic, I mean) so I suppose it's just a matter of personal choice.

Here's a thought experiment to test whether your harmless insult is sexist: how many times have you heard it used for a man? And of those time, when was it used in a way that didn't have emasculating connotations (he's being overly-emotional, or shrill, or gay)?

Because, uhm. It refers to a female dog. That's what the insult is,

geministar01. (Note: Bastard refers to a man's lineage. Bitch calls a woman an animal.)

I'm not taking it personally. I'm pointing out that the term is sexist, not because I care whether or not you like Steph, because because the term in a derogatory context is sexist. Any secret that used that insult would be sexist. That's really all there is to it, I'm afraid. You can disagree with me all you like, but that doesn't change the fact that it's a gendered insult.

Edited 2008-09-01 23:29 (UTC)

I've actually heard it used for a man quite a few times, especially for teenage boys. It's a way of demasculinizing them, similiar to 'pansy' or 'sissy', but with the added attribution of their disfavorable temporment. It has a slightly different meaning when you use it for a man than for a woman, but then again, most words, especially insults, do. It's just the nature of the english language.

As I've pointed out, women using 'bitch' to describe another woman is really no different than black men using 'nigger,' hispanic men calling each other 'esse' or gay men referring to other gay men as 'queer.' I'd say you've just got your panties in a bunch over something that's not particularly important.

It's a way of demasculinizing them, similiar to 'pansy' or 'sissy', but with the added attribution of their disfavorable temporment.

If you don't get how this makes the word extremely sexist, I can't do anything here,

geministar01

Also, no. You don't get to compare those words-- Esse means "dude", "nigga" is used in a similar capacity, "queer" is a sexuality. None of these situations are using the word as an insult, you dip.

Curious secondary 'mouse butting in here:

I've heard teenage girls refer to their friends as bitches a LOT. Everything from "What up mah bitches" on their MySpace pages to answering the phone with "Hey bitch." It disturbs me, but it seems to be creating a situation like the ones the other 'mouse was referring to. I'm a hopeless tool of the patriarchy by your yardstick, but I'm interested to know what you think of that kind of usage.

I think that falls under the earlier mention of meaning being mitigated within closed groups of friends. Not to mention it's not being used as an insult (possibly a pejorative, but not an insult).

I still think the word is sexist when used that way, but not in the same way as here where the word is being used specifically as an insult.

I'm not sure what you think my yardstick is, though. I think everyone's a hopeless tool of the patriarchy, myself included. It comes from being raised in an extremely sexist/racist/ablist culture. We're taught to section the world off in certain ways and react in patterns. No one can entirely stop being that way. Climbing out of that is a slow process that involves a lot of just stopping and trying to notice what the patterns are. It's more than a lifetime's work.

Really, I thought most grown people knew about this. But yeah, I've seen people debating the correct way to use "slut" or "bitch", and boggle at the fact that they don't realise it shouldn't be used ever.

Actually, I agree with "bitch" being a sexist term. I don't use gendered insults -- any of them -- for that very reason. It isn't that hard to find gender-neutral insults.

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