[ SECRET POST #4428 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4428 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 41 secrets from Secret Submission Post #634.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

This is not a type of AU I can get into at all. When I read a historical AU, the period-typical values - and seeing how the characters navigate those values - is a big part of what it's about for me.

But obviously there's nothing wrong with just using the historical trappings without the values, and I can definitely understand why that appeals to some people.

[(Anonymous)]

Kinda same for me. If I want a historical fic then the period-typical values are part of the history.

If I want gay ships everywhere and nobody caring, it's time for an AU with similar levels of tech set in a world with similar historical and cultural backdrop, without it having to be exactly the real world.

That's what it's gonna be anyway, so why insist that it's not?

[sparklywalls]

Same. This would be one of those historical inaccuracies as per my response to yesterday's secret that might bother me a little. Because I too would like to see how people navigate that (no doubt) hostile situation.

But at the same time I'm cool with it if that's what people enjoy.

As anon below says though it doesn't have to be our world. You could make it not quite our historical world in some way and it avoids any of the "why isn't this an issue?" questions.

[(Anonymous)]

I totally agree that seeing characters navigate different historical values and periods and social mores is one of the interesting things about historical AUs! But, like, period-typical values include things other than views on homosexuality, and for me, those particular values are some of the less interesting and entertaining ones to see people navigate.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

Eh yeah but there are ways to write a story with gay characters in it that tackles those other values without having the gay characters be totally socially open and accepted by everyone. You don't have to make a character all about open gayness because they're gay. Society might not even have to notice, or some have done the actually historically accurate politely-ignoring-and-pretending-they-dont-know thing, without being all oh, we're totally-modernly-woke-regarding-LGBT-stuff-and-yet-curiously-nothing-else.

It's not like gay people didn't exist back then, or have lives outside of being gay, right?

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, yeah, it's definitely possible. It's totally a matter of preference. Sometimes you just want a Regency romance where the characters get married and also you want those characters to be gay.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Yeah, and I totally get that - nothing wrong with a story like that. But to me that'd be changing the values of the times SO MUCH regarding gender roles, social roles, the social hierarchy, politics, etc etc beyond simply "gay" that it's an AU, and it'd be weird to call it "historical" at all.

That would be a "fantasy period AU fic" to me.

[(Anonymous)]

DA Or, consider: you just write a Regency era story but they're gay.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT

Sure, you could do that, but the fics this whole thread about is "a Regency era story but they're gay and also nobody cares at all and it's not any sort of issue" which is a different thing from that.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT but it doesn't have to be. People care about a lot of other things in Regency stories--money, for instance. Boom, you have conflict. You don't need homophobia; it's not VITAL to the setting in the slightest.

[(Anonymous)]

It's not, but it's also weird to remove JUST homophobia from historical accuracy and not... classism, sexism, racism, et cetera... how does that even work?

Like, how do you get two women marrying each other and being fine without dealing with the sexism of the era, or the racism of the era if interracial, or the classism and gender roles of the era if they both own property or have family that owns property (as most people with the leisure to feature in Regency era stories did), and how does inheritance work with lesbian couples, if we're keeping all the sexism as well - and if that's all still there, how come only certain issues were cherrypicked to be removed and how does removing them not affect all the others?

If they do affect all the others, which they must in order for it to work, how much can you change before it stops resembling history and it might as well be a totally fictional pre-industrial urban fantasy land named Regencia with certain accents and costumes with nothing at all being different?

[(Anonymous)]

And please don't be like "historical sexism can stay and women could be considered property but totally still have the agency to marry each other and everyone's cool w/it" because come on.

[(Anonymous)]

Eh. This was an era where women just didn't live alone.

Which meant that *sometimes* a lady and her live-in companion were simply a lady plus sort-of servant, or two unmarried ladies quietly living in shared quarters.

And *sometimes* it was a relationship that the neighbours just didn't ask too many questions about.

Not formal marriage vows, but there was lots of room to fly under the radar, and some of them did.

[(Anonymous)]

You must be so fun at parties.

[(Anonymous)]

Just wanted to say that I would genuinely enjoy talking to AYRT at a party and would be really delighted to find someone so interesting to talk to

[(Anonymous)]

Cool, you two have fun, I'm gonna go read about this fantasy land called Regencia where gay historical fiction exists.

[(Anonymous)]

OK.

[(Anonymous)]

Going by the comment you replied to, I would find AYRT really fun to talk to at a party. They seem like an intelligent person with similar sensibilities to my own and a desire to discuss topics in earnest.

[(Anonymous)]

without being all oh, we're totally-modernly-woke-regarding-LGBT-stuff-and-yet-curiously-nothing-else.

NAYRT - This is another thing about "Historical" AUs without homophobia that's never worked for me. It just doesn't make sense that a world which was fine with homosexuality would still be just as sexist and racist as ever. Societal prejudices tend to be connected, in a myriad of complex and ever-shifting ways. IMO, you can't make society totally chill with one type of societal prejudice and have all the others stay exactly the same, and have it make any sense from a sociological standpoint.

Or, well, you can absolutely do it, but as you say, it's not really a "historical AU" so much as it's a "fantasy period AU." And even in a Fantasy Period AU I feel like "Women can fuck women, but they're still just the fancy property of men" would be too nonsensical to work for me. Probably better to get rid of most period-typical sexism and a substantial degree of the racism at the same time so the internal "logic" (using that term very loosely) of societal prejudice remains cohesive.

[(Anonymous)]

But, like, period-typical values include things other than views on homosexuality, and for me, those particular values are some of the less interesting and entertaining ones to see people navigate.

That's valid, but I feel differently. If the fic is a historical gay love story, then the period typical values surrounding homosexuality are by far the most relevant to the story and, for me, the most interesting.

Now if the fic is something other than a gay love story, I agree with you that other period-typical values may be a lot more relevant and interesting. If my het pairing is in, say, a Jane Austen AU, it's entirely possible that the period-typical values surrounding men having sex with men may not come up at all, and that's fine with me. Instead, the focus will likely be placed heavily on the period-typical values and attitudes pertaining to the "proper" behavior for, and treatment of, girls and women. And in the case of a het Jane Austen AU, those would be the period-typical values I would most want to see explored. If instead the fic created a world in which women were respected as the equals of men and were free to own property, dress practically, have sexual experiences, and go where the pleased when the pleased, I would think it was a phenomenal improvement on reality, but I wouldn't be interested in reading the fic.

[(Anonymous)]

Same. I'll accept some anachronism in historical work, but only up until a point. My interest lies in the differences and IMO it's a little boring if everything is the same as a contemporary setting.