[ SECRET POST #4487 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4487 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Dave The Barbarian (TV Show)]


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[Lady and the Tramp]


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07. [WARNING for possible discussion of rape? erring on side of caution here]

[Fan BingBing]
























Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #642.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Again, I think the more important issue with it is - if you're actually shipping it in a real sense - you as the reader often end up sympathizing with, respecting, or on some level identifying with the people involved. And I think that's tricky when you're talking about actual Nazis. Obviously, Nazis were human beings that did have affairs and love interests and multiple dimensions, but I don't think that you should focus on that and let the evil side slip out of focus at all, and that's the risk that arises.

And if you're shipping it as a joke, or ironic thing, or whatever, you run into a different problem, where often the punchline of the joke is gayness, as much as its Trump or Putin.

[(Anonymous)]

And I find the idea that we must portray Nazis as total monsters we reject outright and never portray as 3-dimensional, so I guess we gotta agree to disagree. Sometimes fiction helps to explore why otherwise normal people join groups or start following ideologies like that.

Like yo, we're both obviously on the same side re: glorifying Nazis and/or downplaying their beliefs. That is bad. But:

Does every single ship fic that ships Nazis do that? No. I don't go hunting for it or anything, but most of the actual Nazi WWII AU fic I've read have the ship fleeing WWII Germany and whatnot, not sticking around to be Glorious Proud Nazis.

Should every fictional Nazi be written solely "with an attitude of clear, forthright moral condemnation" and be alien monsters that cannot be sympathized with at all? Again, gotta disagree. That's kinda, in general, not how fiction or fictional characters work. That's how political tracts work. I'd agree with those political tracts but that's not what the authors are going for here.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm definitely not suggesting that all Nazis should be written as one-dimensional, let alone completely alien. Apart from anything else, the real life Nazis themselves were not completely alien. But they were still deeply, deeply evil, even the boring ones. While Nazis are human beings with multiple dimensions, one of those dimensions, the most morally salient one, is the evil.

And I do think that dimension should be *present*, and the thing is that the more you make a character sympathetic and reasonable you make a character, especially in a romantic context, the greater danger you have of losing sight of the evil. And that's where the problem is. When I say that we should have an attitude of clear moral condemnation, I'm not saying that necessarily needs to be the author's tone in every single word, but I think it should be in their mind and inform what they write as a whole.

Does every single ship fic that ships Nazis do that? No. I don't go hunting for it or anything, but most of the actual Nazi WWII AU fic I've read have the ship fleeing WWII Germany and whatnot, not sticking around to be Glorious Proud Nazis. 

I'm not sure I track your point. I don't think you have to write The Third Reich Eternally Triumphant to write something that treats Nazis sympathetically, or what have you.

[(Anonymous)]

Like... yeah, sure any fic about Nazis runs the risk of losing sight of the evil. But back to the original point, that risk being there does not mean that it is always inherently bad.

So you don't seem to be disagreeing?

[(Anonymous)]

I said in my first reply that there are some circumstances where shipping someone doesn't involve sympathizing with them, so that would be an exception.

Outside of that, I mean, maybe you could come up with some kind of weird corner case, I don't know, I can't really think what it would be. For practical purposes I don't really see how you sympathize with, or have affection for, or identity with, or w/e, a character that's a Real Actual Nazi, and not have that ultimately conflict with the evil side of it. To that extent, I guess I'd say it's inherently wrong.