fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #630 ]

[ SECRET POST #630 ]

⌈ Secret Post #630 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com

Pssst, you guys should go vote for us here! Us being

technophile,

mammaria, and

ironicbonds in T2,

telecast,

databomb and

tacky_tramp in T3, and

vociferocity in T1 (did I get all the F!S people? If I missed you, tell me!) -- and anyone else you find interesting, too. Yes, anyone is allowed to vote, so there's no need to feel bad about not participating or anything.

tl;dr: LET'S BREAK SOME POLLS.

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #090.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Characters in anime are intended as ideas beyond their sex. That's all I'm talking about. At times, the so called "strong female characters" are just female because the narrative was intended as FANSERVICE FOR MALES and they can't have a MAIN MALE CHARACTER. This was the case with Shirow's Ghost in the Shell, Mai-Hime or Gunbuster.

Nearly all characters are intended as ideas beyond their sex. What makes you think anime/manga is so special? The only exception I can think of is a work that is specifically intended as an allegory about gender, and I don't read many of those. Most of them are kind of boring.

You seem to be arguing from the perspective that if a work of fiction (specifically an anime or manga, for some inexplicable reason) was not specifically intended to say something about gender, then anyone who notices such meanings in it is a delusional idiot.

This is bullshit. It is, I'm sure, bullshit they teach in some college classes and promote in some philosophy/literary criticism books. It is still bullshit.

There are always social inferences that come from the narrative voice, indeed. What I'm talking about is that anime is different because it's not trying to reflect a social reality. Men and woman are more about their personality, with intended audience being the one thing that define their gender. It's not trying to create role-models for kids to follow. Gender in anime is so that people feel attached to the characters in a different way they would feel attached to a character in a book. MAI HUSBANDO, MAI WAIFU, MOE(for both male and female audiences) and similar ideas.

Regardless, gender in Gurren-Lagann is mostly not really a statement as such nor there is much subtext underneath its formula. Ultimately, the ONE warrior character was Simon. Kamina took the mentor role, Nia took the role of his teacher. Everyone else was just there to reinforce the point of identity and all that jazz. I believe that both you and the OP are reading lines that weren't intended to be read.

I believe that both you and the OP are reading lines that weren't intended to be read.

And here's where you keep going wrong.

It doesn't matter if the lines were intended to be read or not; if enough people nevertheless pick up the meaning and can support it with consistent examples from the text, there's probably something worth investigating there. I agree with you that Gurren Lagann was not really meant to say anything about gender roles, but I could still write quite a bit about what it says about gender roles unintentionally. (The reason I don't is a combination of laziness and not wanting to be forever shunned from at least one Simon/Nia corner of fandom. :P)

I also still don't see how your description of gender in anime differs from gender in fiction in general. It's not like most non-Japanese writers intend for the gender of their characters to "reflect a social reality," either. They're just trying to create characters.

I actually believe many writers do intend to reflect a "social reality" with their works. Regardless, we'll have to agree to disagree.

I don't believe there is a lot worth exploring on gender roles in Gurren-Lagann; but I have to admit to have thought a bit of Nia's story-arc and its ultimate conclusion as a feminist statement... ultimately, I'm sure there are many ways to read the same text.

I actually believe many writers do intend to reflect a "social reality" with their works.

You're right, many writers do inten to reflect a social reality. But again, intention has nothing to do with anything - writers do reflect a social reality, which is why you can talk about gender roles in Gurren Laggen even though they're irrelevent to the text of the series.

I think my issue here is...I don't see how whether something is "written to reflect a social reality" or "written to appeal to readers" really matters all that much (and I don't think that distinction is all that separate across cultures; some Western/non-Japanese fiction is written to appeal to readers, some Far Eastern/Japanese fiction is written to reflect social realities, and vice versa, although the proportions may vary).

A writer who classifies female characters into yamato nadeshiko and tsundere is doing them a disservice and sabotaging his own writing regardless of whether he does it because he believes this is an accurate reflection of female personality or because he thinks only those types of female characters will appeal to audiences. In both cases, the writer is treating "female" as a form of Other to be invoked specifically to conform to social norms or to appeal to male viewers rather than as just another type of human being to be treated with the same respect and given the same diversity as male characters. Can we directly change this, operating in fandom far outside of the anime mainstream itself? No, but we can mitigate its effects in fandom. Which brings me back to my initial comment--the OP was someone who was discouraged by the poor treatment of female characters in anime, so I suggested some ways of dealing with it.

I think that pretty much any fully-realized female character can be read as a feminist narrative, Yoko and Nia included. But some have more problems standing in the way than others. In Nia's case it would have helped if the show had given her more agency towards the end and given us a clearer idea of how much choice was involved in the acceptance of her death, and I harbor sad little fantasies that the second movie will give us some of that, but I acknowledge that this particular issue has more to do with Simon being the main character than with direct sexism.

Completely unrelated person here. According to the writer... Nia's death and the acceptance of it was completely her choice. She rejected any help Simon would be completely willing to give her, as it is pretty clear that if she had asked he would be completely willing to risk the Universe to the Spiral Nemesis, and decided to die with dignity and no regrets. I do agree that the show was at times perhaps too subtle with her development in the last few episodes, but I think it she was the one that got the most "strength" in them other than Simon. I would have liked to see more scenes of her defying the Anti-Spirals, myself; perhaps a more visually intense psychological battle.

As for the "feminist" idea to her story the other Anon mentioned... I kinda see it. She starts under the wing of her father, decides to become worthwhile for being Nia and nothing else, "rejects" her own status as princess, even when seen as an inferior creature she talks like if she deserves respect and doesn't care what the enemy thinks of her and ultimately dies as a result of her own freedom rather than as a victim.

I don't disagree with you. What I'm saying is that I think the show could have done a better job of showing us that. It was far too easy to watch the end and come away with the impression "well, Nia just couldn't hold on any longer, and Simon didn't want to risk the Spiral Nemesis to bring her back," when if they'd added in just a few scenes exploring Nia's development towards the end their intent would have been much clearer.

I think they did a good job... but you're right in that the majority of the viewers that probably are just watching the show for the PEWPEWMECHALAZERS are truly going to get a wrong idea about the ending. Regardless, I think this was mostly due to Gurren-Lagann's insane pacing. In the interview with Yukari Fukui I read in this Chara-Mel magazine she did mentioned that Nia is getting plenty of new scenes in the second movie... let's cross fingers and hope for the best. :)

I think they did a good job... but you're right in that the majority of the viewers that probably are just watching the show for the PEWPEWMECHALAZERS are truly going to get a wrong idea about the ending. Regardless, I think this was mostly due to Gurren-Lagann's insane pacing. Anyway, in the interview with Yukari Fukui included in this month's Chara-Mel magazine she did mentioned that Nia is getting plenty of new scenes in the second movie... let's cross fingers and hope for the best. :)

I forgot to say 2 things:

-Ignore the other very similar post... it kinda makes no sense.
-The interviewed Yukari Fukui is Nia's VA.

...I harbor sad little fantasies that the second movie will give us some of that...

I thought I was the only one. They already gave Yoko protagonism and cinematic struggles in the first movie, and they said the second movie is for Simon AND Nia... so here's hoping she gets some much deserved spotlight. ;_;

I've got my fingers crossed. So many of my issues with the anime (both as a feminist, as a fan, and as both) could be resolved just by giving Yoko and Nia more of the spotlight they deserve. Yoko got her turn, so...

bullshit they teach in some college classes and promote in some philosophy/literary criticism books

Hey now. Some philosophy enthusiasts can still see bullshit for what it is :D I have to agree about some Lit Theory majors, though.

I did say "some." There are plenty that promote perfectly sensible viewpoints. It's just more amusing to mock the ones that don't. ;)

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

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