fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #634 ]

[ SECRET POST #634 ]

⌈ Secret Post #634 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[ under a rock, much? ]

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Notes:

Rank 18! → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/

Secrets Left to Post: 11 pages, 253 secrets from Secret Submission Post #091.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

It's not just the kidnapping. For example, he was willing to risk the safety of every person on his base for the sake of his perversion -- getting the Beauty -- and it did, in fact, ultimately cost all of their lives. He apparently collects creatures to keep in his "menagerie" with no particular regard for whether or not they are sentient.

Basically, it is his perversion that's his biggest flaw, and it gets downplayed in fandom from a seriously creepy obsession to "poor, misunderstood ZEX sees beauty in humans -- particularly the Captain." And he's a liar, too -- or rather, he deliberately misleads you about what kind of creature his Beauty is, sending off to hunt a dangerous monster blind.

He has a noble side, too, as a war hero who was shunned by his countrymen. But making him a total martyr makes him much less interesting as a character. I like ZEX, but I want to see him being creepy and underhanded and then have a few moments of glory or sympathy. I don't want to see him as a tragic hero, or the Captain's woobie.

...huh, those are good points. Although I'm not sure... how much did ZEX even know about the Beauty? I mean, he isn't even sure what planet it's on. It's possible he didn't know quite how dangerous it was.

I don't have any rebuttal for the thing about the menagerie, though. Hmm.

I guess it's debatable, but I always thought he wanted the Beauty because it was hideous and dangerous. I just imagine him reading old logs of starfaring crews, talking about this horrifying monster that killed half their men, and being like "OOH I WANT ONE." I think the hint he gives you was supposedly deciphered from a log like that, and even if they were vague, it seems like they'd mention how vicious the Beauty is.

It's obvious that ZEX doesn't know how dangerous the Beast is, all that ZEX knows is how beautiful it supposedly is. He doesn't mention how dangerous it is at all, and when it comes on his ship he completely underestimates it. If he was aware of how dangerous it was, he would have been more careful. When it starts killing his crew, he's shocked. I can't imagine him being aware of the danger and thinking THAT'S AWESOME LET'S KILL EVERYONE and when it escapes, he tries to contain it and stop it from killing everyone rather than sitting back and beating off about it. If anything his mentions of his menagerie being carefully constructed makes one think that he takes good care of his creatures and doesn't just let them kill people left and right, and that he wouldn't take random murdering monsters in and underestimate them so they kill him, otherwise he'd be dead already.

You forgot that he's also into beastiality! At least, according to the creators. Honestly, I don't think his obsession is that creepy, aside from the beastiality. He's still vain and self-absorbed somewhat, like all VUX, in that he considers most things in his universe to be things for his amusement. Things are his pets, his toys, his children. I wouldn't really call that creepy, and I haven't seen that downplayed by most people. I've always made it clear that ZEX considers the Captain his pet, something still beneath him despite how much he wants to bang him. And he's also very focused on getting what he wants, lying/manipulation included. I try not to downplay that either.

I don't think he thought the Creature was that dangerous, so I don't think there was an element of malice to sending the Captain out to get it. That doesn't mesh with how he wants to capture you later.

If you want to see him being one-dimensionally creepy/underhanded, most of the fandom outside frungylovers is profoundly creeped out by him, so they present him that way (if they mention him at all). I don't find him creepy, I just find him kind of tragic, in a messed-up, unself-aware kind of way.

There's also a bit of a meta side to this for me, where I find it upsetting that the same-sex love interest for the Captain also happens to be a perverted kidnapper who has sex with animals, and the opposite-sex love interest is perfectly matched to him and intelligent and wonderful. There's an uncomfortable undertone for me there, and I kind of try to present ZEX as more than just a "creepy pervert" for that reason.

(Also as an amusing sidenote: StarCon3 actually DID make ZEX a martyr! Even I don't do that.)

Also I think I know who you are? Hmm. :O

I didn't mention the actual sex part (re: bestiality) because I wasn't sure how canon it was.

I'm not saying he wants to put the people on the base in danger, that he has malicious intent toward them -- I'm saying he is so blinded by his obsession with the creature that possessing it is the most important thing, more important than their safety. He does know it's dangerous; he thinks he can handle it anyway, because he's a brilliant tactician and that's made him arrogant. It's doubtful that anything could successfully contain the Beauty for very long, but he would have tried anyway.

Also, on another note, every time he says ...beautiful it has a weird stress. He means ugly. And I don't see at all as a "seeing the beauty in everything" sort of deal: he is absolutely fascinated, and obsessed with, the grotesque. He views the Captain no differently than he views the Beauty.

"...he considers most things in his universe to be things for his amusement. Things are his pets, his toys, his children."

How is that not creepy? He wants to keep a wide variety of lifeforms captive, without regard to sentience, and apparently have sex with them, again regardless of sentience or consent. The thing is, it's his obsession with the grotesque that is downplayed, and that's his most vital flaw. In fic I've only really seen him pull a move on the Captain and DAX (don't get me started on DAX) and maybe a couple of your crew for the lulz. Has there been fic where he's gone after something non-sentient, and seriously? Is there fic where he's put himself and others at serious risk because of his obsession?

"I've always made it clear that ZEX considers the Captain his pet, something still beneath him despite how much he wants to bang him."

That never really came across to me. I'm not calling you a liar or anything, but perhaps it's not as clear as you think?

I don't want to see him as a one-dimensional, evil character. I like ZEX. I don't want to see him whitewashed either. I'd like him as a person whose enormous flaws end up costing him dearly, who struggles with being a great VUX military hero whilst being shunned by his fellow VUX, who has moments of heroism but cannot truly be heroic because his obsession with the grotesque takes priority over all else. Perhaps he realizes this and attempts to redeem himself through a sacrificial act.

I'm gay. I don't like it when same-sex partners are trivialized or demonized either. But the stuff that's wrong with ZEX is what makes him interesting.

It doesn't surprise me, really. History whitewashes its heroes, presents them as superhuman when they were all too flawed, lays claim to them even when they were shunned in life.

You know me kind of, but I can't imagine I'm who you think I am.

It really depends on how canon you take the interviews.

I don't think he thought the creature WOULD sacrifice their safety. I don't think he's arrogant, I think he's overconfident. He downplays his role in the War when talking to you, for example. There's a difference there, I think.

He is fascinated in things that VUX find ugly, which happen to be most creatures and sentient beings. The point of ZEX and the VUX was that ugly/beautiful was subjective, depending on who you talk to.

The only sentient thing in his menagerie are the Shofixti Maidens, who are all in cryogenic suspension when you find them. Did he have sex with them? COULD he have sex with him? You can't say either way for sure, but if he DID, he would have had to REFREEZE them after each time since you find them in suspension on his planet. That seems like a lot of pointless work to me, and is a point against him having sex with them. Whether or not he had sex with the Maidens is debatable, and they're the only proven sentient thing in his menagerie. As for the sex with his creatures, again, it's not proven. It's implied, but it's not proven. Unless you take the interviews as canon. Maybe, for all we know, he just stares at them and gets off. Living pornography he uses to get off for all we know. I don't find it creepy, I just find it kind of sad is all. But then again I'm really used to ZEX so he doesn't strike me as weird.

I've mentioned that he's tried things with certain things in his menagerie before. And I wrote that fic for the backstory of the Secret Theater, and in fact it's a huge plotpoint IN the secret theater, that he's willing to put his entire planet and crew at risk, engage in almost a war with his own people, just because he enjoys banging the Captain so much and doesn't want to stop (and doesn't think he SHOULD stop, because in his mind he's not doing anything wrong). I'm not sure what more you want. If you want more fic along the lines that you describe, why don't you write some yourself or encourage others to do the same? You could write an essay on frungylovers about it or something, raise the issue. We're a very open-minded group.

This? (http://www.ashido.com/sc2/ZEXCaptainequals.GIF) His constant diminuitive possessives? Belittling comments about how primitive and nonsensical humans are? Everything I write and draw for them has that in mind, pretty much. If that doesn't come across I dunno what to tell you. On the other hand, I also see it as almost an unintentional belittling... it's not something ZEX thinks about, it's just something that he knows. I think there's evidence in the game that ZEX would not be opposed to some kind of relationship with the Captain, rather than just having him as a pet in his menagerie. After all, you have his various flirting lines... "We can get to know one another... expand our interspecies relationship." or "The scope of our relationship can grow as close as you wish." or "I hope we can meet someday as friends... perhaps even more." where he's not just thinking hey you're really hot i want to put you in my zoo, he is hitting on you as an equal. It's entirely possible that he just can't concieve of a relationship where he's not in control, or that they could actually have a real relationship so when he decides to go for it he has to take possession of the Captain so he can't leave, but again, that's all speculative. But those lines are there, even if they were just added to try and make straight male players feel uncomfortable.

I like ZEX too, and I don't think I whitewash him. He's a flawed guy. He's an obsessive pervert who gets blinded by things he wants, but I don't think that should be his dominating trait. He has an entire life outside of that that we don't even see. That's what I want to explore most of the time. I think it can be entirely possible for ZEX to be heroic when placed in the right situations, since I don't think his obsession controls every single aspect of his daily life and every single decision he makes. After all, he doesn't immediately attack and capture you when he sees you, the object of his most passionate obsession. In fact, it doesn't even seem to occur to him until later, when you bring him the Beast, and he adores humans. I think he has more control over his obession than you give him credit for, and while he makes poor decisions regarding it, I don't think it's a hugely tragic unbeatable flaw that affects every single aspect of his life. I think it's something that permeates most aspects of his life and his decisions and clouds his judgement, but doesn't prevent him from being a character capable of good or heroic deeds under the correct circumstances.

Hmmm. What fandom do I know you from, aside from Starcon2?

You are the one who brought up the bestiality thing. And overconfident is probably more correct, you're right. I don't think that changes my point.

The Shofixti Maidens are the only completely canonical example of sentient beings in his menagerie, I'll give you that. But the fact that he even has them, combined with the fact that he wants you, implies that he may have more, or at the very least shows that he doesn't particularly care.

Yes, he's obsessed with things the VUX find ugly. It's similar to a human being creepily fascinated with things humans find ugly.

Regarding endangering his planet because he doesn't want to stop banging the Captain, and doesn't think it's wrong... The issue I take with that is that the reader is inclined to feel sympathetic, that it's VUX society, and not ZEX, that is wrong. And granted, VUX society is wrong on a host of levels, but for example, the player should feel that ZEX was in the wrong for endangering his people in order to collect the Beauty. I don't know that I've read anything where the reader was supposed to think ZEX was definitely in the wrong.

I don't think I'd ever seen that comic. It didn't strike me as a particularly condescending attitude, is all I'm saying. Anyway, I don't think his flirting really shows he considers the Captain an equal. His use of "relationship" in this context doesn't really imply an actual romantic relationship between equals; it's used euphemistically.

It seems like he's considering capturing you from the beginning, given his intense interest in you. But he is a brilliant tactician, and so he sets things up to kill two birds with one stone -- he sends you off to get the Beauty, taking the risk that you won't manage it, but presumably he's analyzed your abilities and weaponry and deemed you fit enough to make the attempt. This gives him time to make preparations to capture you: checking his ship, preparing containment, etc. He's obsessed enough to get exiled for it, so yes, I view it as a much bigger flaw than you do.

I might write something down the line; I think it would have to be fairly long to capture this vision of him, and I don't do so well with long, but I may try. I enjoyed the Secret Theaters -- well, the early ones; I think the "ZEX is attacked" plotline sent things a little far into "noble, tragic ZEX" territory, but overall they're fun. It's just that the whole of LJ StarCon fandom is so heavily based on it... it doesn't seem like "Star Control II" fandom anymore, it seems like "Zarla's StarCon II Secret Theater" fandom, which, you know, would be alright, if it were a niche in a bigger fandom instead of the whole fandom (well, the whole fandom that acknowledges ZEX, anyway).

I haven't really been involved in StarCon II fandom for a while -- it was somebody talking elsewhere about an RP and hoping they were IC that prompted me to create the secret.

I'm in the Phoenix Wright fandom, and I've commented occasionally on your screencap adventures. Overall I think you're a pretty neat person, but I'm just craving a more middle-of-the-road interpretation of ZEX, because I think he's more interesting that way.

I brought it up because a lot of the time people say I WANT ZEX TO BE MORE OF A PERVERT but they don't actually want him having sex with animals. With how implicit a lot of his activies are in the game, you can actually run a gamut of ZEX just being a bizarrely passionate auteur whose interest in his collection comes off to humans through translation as being sexual (and given that his menagerie is like, the only thing he has to do for twenty years, it may make sense that it becomes the dominating force in his life), to a guy who rapes sentients and animals and can't control his slavering lust at the expense of his own life. You could make a case for him at pretty much any point between those two, depending on what canon you use. I don't think there's a definite, rocksolid definition of him and exactly how perverted he is.

If the reader feels that the other VUX are in the wrong, that's their interpretation of the events. As for the Beast, I don't think ZEX was in the wrong for endangering his people because I don't think he knew that was going to happen. Given how extensive and how long ZEX has worked on his menagerie, I believe he would have the strongest containment units possible and, up to that point, have been able to safely contain any creature that he wanted, since he's still alive when we meet him. Since he's never had something break free before, he has no reason to think that it will this time. I don't think he was ever willfully, knowingly endangering anyone with the Beast, and I don't think he was in the wrong for wanting it.

There's also this one (http://www.ashido.com/sc2/ZEXCaptainbadtiming1.GIF). Why would he flirt euphemistically with the Captain if he didn't at the least consider him an equal? That seems pointless and random (if not just for unsettling straight male players). If he wanted the Captain, why not just take him like he takes everything else, instead of playing coy and flirting with you? Trying desperately to make you feel sympathetic towards him, appeal to you as an intelligent being, refer to the two of you as being the same?

I don't see the entire thing as being quite so premeditated... rather a decision he came to while you were gone getting the Beast, realizing that this might be his only chance to have a human and that he should take advantage of it, so he prepared accordingly. It's a slight difference, but it's still there, you know what I mean? I think we just fundamentally view him in a different way, which is fine, but I don't think I leatherpants him. I put a lot of thought into all of this.

I wanted the ZEX-gets-attacked storyline to show that there would be consequences for what they were doing, and to get an outsider opinion on the entire thing, rather than tragic noble ZEX, so it's interesting that it came off that way to you. The problem with doing the caps is that you only tend to hear things from ZEX's viewpoint, and as a result you tend to sympathize with him while being completely unaware of what might be going on that he's not telling you, thus the sidefic exploring that where he's being completely irresponsible and selfish about it. It's hard in the context of a one-on-one conversation with someone to tell the reader something that ZEX would lie about or simply omit. That's part of why I had DAX come in to try and explain to you that the entire thing was dangerous and that ZEX was being shortsighted and selfish, and that he just views you as another member of his menagerie in a free-roaming kind of way.

There practically was no LJ Starcon2 fandom before my secret theaters, since Frungylovers was made way way after I started doing them, when I asked a bunch of friends if they thought it'd be a good idea. I loved ZEX, so most of the people I know that I tried to get into Starcon2 love ZEX, and frungylovers was primarily made up from people that I knew and friends I'd made, or people that I managed to convince to join or play the game. It wasn't like there was an existing LJ fandom for Starcon2 that I took over or something, it's more like it was me and a group of friends that are welcoming of new people and want to expand. There's that and Starcon2 fandom is small period. It was small when I came in (you can imagine how small it was before UQM), it's small now, and it'll never be big enough to allow for the kind of niches that you describe, except for frungylovers being a niche inside Starcon2 fandom as a whole. I'm frankly shocked that frungylovers ever got more than thirty members, that's how small this fandom is. Most of the people there never heard of Starcon2 until I told them about it and begged and pleaded for them to play, and most of them are my friends. That's just how things turned out, and if you want to help change things, it's really too small to start a separate community or something... you have to try and do things yourself.

An RP hmm? I'm assuming you're talking about Landel!ZEX, but that's something entirely different and probably better suited to email, if you'd prefer.

I think we really do just have a fundamental difference of opinion on ZEX, although I really don't think that calls for making a sweeping generalization. All you had to do was open a dialogue on frungylovers about it.

I'm kinda tired of arguing; it really is a fundamental difference of opinion, and I don't intend to change your mind, just try to present my view as valid. I wasn't trying to attack you -- you created your interpretation of the character, and while I personally find it somewhat uninteresting, you have every right to expand on that interpretation. I take issue more with the fact that so many others (well, so many in the scope of the fandom) just seem to follow your lead as far as ZEX is concerned. I just want some variety in interpretation.

I phrased the secret the way I did in an attempt to be succinct. Tl;dr secrets annoy me, and I'm trying to get away from apologetically explaining myself in every secret I make.

And it was the other person talking about whether they were in character, not whether you were in character. Also, that looks like a neat RP.

Honestly, I wasn't trying to attack you, and I'm sorry if you felt that way.

Yeah, me too. I really just think differences of opinion like this are just you know, opinions. Or interpretations, and I'm interested in other interpretations. Fascinated by them, actually! There's nothing I like more! But I don't like being attacked for my own interpretation when I feel like it's fairly grounded in canon, and that secret was phrased kind of as an attack so I wanted to defend myself. I do get a bit passionate about ZEX i must admit, he was an early favorite character of mine. /o\

I can't do anything about anyone else's interpretation, really, that's out of my hands. I just do my own thing, and people run with it sometimes. Not much you can do there. :O I can see how that can be frustrating for people, I totally understand that, but I just think you can you know, bring it up to the comm or something rather than make a secret about it is all. :O

Oh, I see. Sorry, I'm self-conscious a bit about landel!ZEX since it's such a unique situation to put him in and [cut tl;dr explanation here] so you know. :B It's a very fun RP though so I really enjoy playing there as a sidenote.

I didn't really feel attacked, I just thought it was an unfair generalization, you know? And I just wanted to explain why I see him the way I do sometimes. But I'm tired of arguing about it too, I mean, we really just see him in a different way and there's nothing wrong with that.

Well, I do stand by my secret. The fangirling annoys the hell out of me. I just didn't want you to think I was attacking you specifically, since you're kind of the leader of the fandom.

I would also like to point out that you're kind of intimidating. Not because you're mean or demanding or not accepting of other viewpoints -- you're not like that -- but because of your BNF status. Which is why I'm staying anonymous.

Me, intimidating, really? :O It's not like I'll call out other people to attack you or something or ban you and be all THIS PERSON IS A JERK EVERYONE LET'S NOT LISTEN TO THEM or something like that. :O If I ever have a disagreement or argument with someone it's always just between me and that person, and no one else needs to be involved or know about it. Definitely not going to try and call an army about it. :O

It's less that I think you'd call an army, and more that I think an army might magically appear, whether you want one or not. XD

I see, I see. :O

THIS

Also, friend me or something?

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #634 ]

127 OP

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lol tl;dr

lol tl;dr part 2

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AND AGAIN!

god i can't shut up

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