Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-10-11 05:21 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-10-11 05:21 pm
[ SECRET POST #645 ]
⌈ Secret Post #645 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
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102.
[X-Men]
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103.
[Katekyo Hitman Reborn!]
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104.
[The Famous Five; George]
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105.
[Death Note]
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106.
[Cirque du Freak]
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107.
[Nana]
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108.
[fanfiction, fanfiction.net]
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109.
[Star Trek]
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110.
[The Flash]
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111.
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112.
[Winona Ryder]
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113.
[Emperor's New Groove]
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114.
[Bokurano]
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115.
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116.
[Blackadder goes Fourth (sic)]
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117.
[Neon Genesis Evangelion/Power Puff Girls; Asuka/Princess]
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118.
[Katekyo Hitman Reborn!]
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119.
[Final Fantasy VII]
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120.
[Apollo/Dionysus; Nietzsche]
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121.
[Batman]
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122.
[Yaoi fangirlism]
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123.
[The Little Mermaid]
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124.
[Supernatural]
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125. [broken]
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126.
[Fanfiction]
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127.
[Chrono Cross/Chrono Trigger]
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128.
[Final Fantasy VII]
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129.
[Richard Dawkins]
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130.
[Blue's Clues]
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131.
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132.
[Fanfiction]
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133.
[Super Junior]
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134.
[XCKD, webcomic]
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135.
[Leverage/Final Fantasy VII: Before Crisis]
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136.
[Supernatural]
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137.
[Bandom]
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138.
[Twilight]
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139.
[Tenga Toppa Gurren Lagann]
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140.
[Harry Potter/Daniel Radcliffe]
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141.
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142.
[Charmed; Piper & Cole]
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143.
[The Office]
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144.
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145.
[Project Runway]
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146.
[Kuroshitsuji/Katekyo Hitman Reborn!]
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147.
[His Infernal Majesty]
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148.
[Jak & Daxter]
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149.
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150.
[House MD]
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151.
[Star Wars, Emperor Palpatine]
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152.
[Naruto, NaruSasuNaruwhatever]
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153.
[Wonderfalls]
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154.
[Samba de Amigo]
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155.
[Batman; Riddler/Scarecrow]
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156.
[Smallville]
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157.
[Pokemon]
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158.
[Fringe]
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159.
[Doctor Who]
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160.
[Code Geass]
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161. [repeat]
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162.
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163.
[Avatar: the Last Airbender]
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164.
[Code Geass]
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165.
[Fandom; Roleplaying]
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166.
[Veronica Mars]
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167.
[Bleach]
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168.
[Hellsing]
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169.
[Ace Attorney]
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170.
[Hugh Laurie]
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171.
[Shin Megami Tensei]
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172.
[20th Century Boys]
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173.
[House MD]
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174.
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175.
[Digimon]
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176.
[Power Rangers; Alpha]
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177.
[Fanfiction; Battle Royale]
Notes:
WHOA, somebody bought FS a year of paid time on 10/05 and I didn't notice until now -- belated thank you very much!
CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/
Secrets Left to Post: 20 pages, 482 secrets from Secret Submission Post #093.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2008-10-12 01:38 am (UTC)(link)Fuck that. And you know, I like most of the women that come on the show, and I'd love to see more het sex, but I also think it's perfectly great that people think two men would be hot together.
(Also, until we find out Ruby's host prayed to be possessed and used by a demon, it's not really the same thing.)
136, btw.
(Anonymous) 2008-10-12 01:39 am (UTC)(link)no subject
WHO THE FUCK IS WE?
I h ave been calling out guys for liking lesbian porn for ages. Now I'm calling out yaoi fangirls for the same reason and they're arguing back that becuase guys like lesbians, it's totally cool? No, no. You can't just assume that this is the case when you have no evidence to back it up. Have you ever actually bothered to find out if people criticizing you feel the same or differently about lesbian porn?
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(Anonymous) 2008-10-12 01:49 am (UTC)(link)no subject
That's your bad.
People post about what they care about.
... And also about what is immediately relevant to them. I'll tell you right now that these people are exposed more often to yaoi/slash fangirls than they are to boys who are digging on lesbians, so that's what they write about. They have more material and it is closer to their lives.
I've seen dozens of posts over the years whining about girls liking gay sex (yaoi? please, anime fanbrat, dial down your Nippon-centricity)
Yaoi is not gay sex. Slash is not gay sex. Lesbian porno is not gay sex. Seeing a pattern here? Yaoi, moreover, has several thing that typify it as a genre and make it seperable from discussions of slash fic.
and I have yet to see a single damn one decrying the opposite behavior by the male of the species.
Gee, you think that might have to do with where you're looking? Context is important. Lesbian porn is irrelevent to fandom and slash, so why would people post about it when posting baout fandom and slash?
Self-hating? You betcha.
False conclusions? You betcha. You can't just slap a label of "self hating" on something in order to evade looking at any of the criticisms leveled at something. In fact, the lesbian analogy is entirely irrelevent to this secret and is something you just dredged up to ignore the point that the OP was trying to make.
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(Anonymous) 2008-10-12 12:40 pm (UTC)(link)...yeah, I'd expect to see a bit more complaints about it as well.
You can't just slap a label of "self hating" on something in order to evade looking at any of the criticisms leveled at something.
yet those who decry are very quick to slap that label on those they disagree with.
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And then people bring it up on the flipside all the time -- "Girls like slash, it's the same as how guys like lesbians." The typical response is "oh, okay, I get it now," not "IT'S DIFFERENT FOR BOYS!"
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And, to be completely fair, I doubt it actually is a case of women being worse about it than men. Fandoms are often just more dominated by women, so we see it more.
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This is exactly my point. People don't complain about guy's propensity to lesbians because there are more girls and therefore more slashers.
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however, the thing that annoys me is when guys drool over 'hot lesbian sex' it's always a validation of their own ~heterosexuality~. but when girls do the same with 'hawt guy on guy action' it's either they're secretly lesbians, afraid of their own sexuality or down right weird.
that's why most slash and Yaoi fangirls screams "BOYS DO IT WITH GIRL ON GIRL ACTION! WHY CAN IT BE THE SAME FOR US?"
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(Anonymous) 2008-10-12 01:25 pm (UTC)(link)I think you're hitting the nail on it right there. How often do you see men who like watching lesbian porn being accused of "hating their own dicks" and "OMG, internalised misandry!!!"? Never. Not saying women aren't more prone to self-hatred than men, because that's the natural result of the patriarchal soiciety we live in, but it's still weird that two phenonema this similar get so different reactions.
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There's also this: Men generally outnumber women in fiction. By a lot. So why is it that, in something with say 4 women and 10 men and 1-2 canon pairings, the slash focus will usually be on canonically paired males, and not unpaired ones? Why is it ok to ship slash where there's canon het, but taboo to ship het where there's canon slash, or even just heavily implied slash?
Then there's the part where fiction is already dominated by focus on the males, so when women who like female characters to have roles see fandom saying it should be about the males and females are secondary, it's almost impossible not to be annoyed by it.
It's not m/m vs f/f, with one group being ok and the other bad. Neither is bad. It's just the forms they take.
no subject
(men don't explain why it's better and more interesting that way).
oh, I assure you I came across countless men, in and outside of fandom, who claimed that lesbian sex is the greatest thing evah! unlike those weired girls and their obbsession with icky gay sex! EWWWW!
(So why is it that, in something with say 4 women and 10 men and 1-2 canon pairings, the slash focus will usually be on canonically paired males, and not unpaired ones?)
it's not about 'breaking canon het couples', more like 'the paired males are usually main characters or at least important secondary characters, so naturally they have a lot of screen time and therefore fangirls would pay more attention to them'.
IDK.. in the end.. it's all comes down to the individual, really.
(Why is it ok to ship slash where there's canon het, but taboo to ship het where there's canon slash, or even just heavily implied slash?)
that fucking hypocrisy bothers me greatly, and trust me Yaoi AND Yuri fans are to blame for it (I think I even ranted about two days ago).
(Then there's the part where fiction is already dominated by focus on the males, so when women who like female characters to have roles see fandom saying it should be about the males and females are secondary, it's almost impossible not to be annoyed by it).
you SHOULD be annoyed. any sane human being SHOULD be annoyed by this! ><
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*hem*
oh, I assure you I came across countless men, in and outside of fandom, who claimed that lesbian sex is the greatest thing evah! unlike those weired girls and their obbsession with icky gay sex! EWWWW!
It's really all about what parts of fandom and what kind of fans you encounter. I mean, the OP? A lot of the reason there's such a stigma against slash is because for a lot of people, that's all they see when they enter fandoms. In fact, for about the first 4~ years I was into anime/manga, I thought that I knew the 3 people who didn't hate female characters, because that's all I saw. Granted, it was "get interested, look into, see rabid female character/het hate, walk away and enjoy series in solitude, rinse, repeat" as opposed to stay with for a long time, but it's only the last couple years that I've found other het and gen fans, much less slash fans who aren't like that. (It's also resulted in my reading a few things with slash that don't make me want to murder the characters involved.)
it's not about 'breaking canon het couples', more like 'the paired males are usually main characters or at least important secondary characters, so naturally they have a lot of screen time and therefore fangirls would pay more attention to them'.
I will preface this with the disclaim that the entire fandom shipping phenomenon escapes me and I just don't get the appeal, as it's the rare couple that I actually ship, though I will squee over pretty much anything you put in front of me as long as it doesn't annoy me.
The thing is that there seems to be some sort of prestige about being paired with the main or most popular character, and most of it seems to be reacting to that. So I don't think it's about breaking up the het couple, but about making a favorite more "important." There seems to be this idea in general that being paired off conveys import, which has never made sense to me. Characters should be interesting and important for themselves, not for who they are (or who you wish they were) interested in.
you SHOULD be annoyed. any sane human being SHOULD be annoyed by this!
Agreed. It's just that most don't seem to realize that people who have a problem with the bias and complaints against femalew characters and storylines and relationships are coming from this base "90% of what's out there is all about the guys anyway, and you want to make fiction even more about the guys and less about girls? And you're telling me that it's because guys in fiction are more interesting and better characters?"
tl;dr AHOY!
(It's really all about what parts of fandom and what kind of fans you encounter).
bingo!
(I mean, the OP? A lot of the reason there's such a stigma against slash is because for a lot of people, that's all they see when they enter fandoms).
tell me about it! :/
the problem with this kind of retarded Yaoi fangirls is that they are usually LOUDER than the ones in the yuri or het fandom. that's why people notice them far more often than other.
(the entire fandom shipping phenomenon escapes me and I just don't get the appeal).
you and me both.
I admit it, I couldn't care less about pairings and shipping in general. I occasionally would like the idea of a ship and think it's pretty darn cute.. but that's about it.
in order for me to bother reading fanfics or looking for fanart for a certain couple is that I have to be utterly and completely in love it!(basically if I don't OTP it, I'll probably will get bored of it quickly. right now the only pairing that I ship seriously is thoes two lovely fellows in my icon x3).
(Characters should be interesting and important for themselves, not for who they are (or who you wish they were) interested in).
AMEN! I pretty much agree with what you said there.
(It's just that most don't seem to realize that people who have a problem with the bias and complaints against femalew characters and storylines and relationships are coming from this base "90% of what's out there is all about the guys anyway, and you want to make fiction even more about the guys and less about girls? And you're telling me that it's because guys in fiction are more interesting and better characters?")
That pisses me off to no end!
unfortunately, the mistreat of women in fiction is hardly a one side's fault.
it's a mixture of society's own biased POV about the female gender role, the so called 'feminist' who would throw the word 'anti-feminist' around at any attempt of writing anything other than a 'perfect female role models', and the insecure misogynist fangirls who would bash any person with tits (the list could go on and on, sadly).
oh, and finally.. I totally get not being terribly interested in slash, since it's definitely not for everybody.
I'm, personally, not THAT much of a fangirl.. as in I don't slash guys for the sake of slash. I'm much more interested to read about about 'guys who are in love with each other' rather than 'guys who are having hawt buttsecks'.
Re: tl;dr AHOY!
it's a mixture of society's own biased POV about the female gender role, the so called 'feminist' who would throw the word 'anti-feminist' around at any attempt of writing anything other than a 'perfect female role models', and the insecure misogynist fangirls who would bash any person with tits (the list could go on and on, sadly).
Oh, that kind of "feminist"-the "I'm hard on female characters because I demand better" kind pisses me off to no end. I actually despise the "strong female character" terms because it usually indicates a limited idea of what it means to be a good female character (and notice how it's "female character" and "character" not "female character" and "male character") and anything that doesn't fit that idea is weak or bad or TSTL or whatever, and character faults in male characters get excuses, and for females it's proof they suck and on and on.
I'm, personally, not THAT much of a fangirl.. as in I don't slash guys for the sake of slash. I'm much more interested to read about about 'guys who are in love with each other' rather than 'guys who are having hawt buttsecks'.
I think that a lot of it is that there's a self-imposed (at times) stigma against just liking it for the fantasy, but admitting there might not be a basis for it. There's nothing wrong with just thinking two guys (or any other gender combination) together is hot, but most think that can't be enough, and look for textual basis. But to do that, most can't not have it influence how they treat the female character involved. Like, in another fandom, I know some who admit the het pairing belongs together, but they're positive the guy would be with the personal favorite too, as shown in the text. But to do that, there has to be cheating, and so she gets rewritten as a doormat and him as a cheater, etc.
I think most people don't realize that they bring a lot of personal biases and influences to the table in fiction. Like, anytime I've seen someone mention "identification" in fiction, they've been positive that the writer really was writing their xcharacter with a lead or hot character, regardless of the text.
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*nod nod* I agree with everything you wrote.
and yeah, there is nothing wrong when shipping two guys just because thet're hot.. it just not usualy my thing xD
PS. mind if I friend you?
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Friend away!
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(Anonymous) 2008-10-12 12:41 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
Also, I don't give a shit if guys like lesbian porn. I find f/f hot. Also m/f. Also m/m. (In fandom, anyway. Real Person Porn is only hot for me if f/f or some m/f.) It's when you get the slash fantards going "OMG THAT WOMAN IS A BITCHSLUTWHORE HAAAEEET" about female characters for little reason, whereas I have never seen a femslash fan do the same about male characters (doesn't mean none ever have, I've just never seen it!), then there is a problem.
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(Anonymous) 2008-10-12 10:34 am (UTC)(link)Wow. My queer studies professors would have a serious talking with you about the whole "boys love lesbians haha!" laugh it off thing. People have been critiquing f/f in mainstream porn for ages. Granted, that's on the periphery of fandom, so I shouldn't really go into it, but just know, that A LOT of people do criticize the treatment of lesbian porn for many reasons with the most common complaints being
a) in mainstream porn lesbianism is often treated as being centered around a man - i.e. "teach me how to please him!" "Let's make him jealous!" "Oh I wish I had a cock, but this will do!" and
b) quite a few men will drool over and buy lesbian porn, but will be homophobic/heterosexist and find lesbian sex immoral, suggesting that girl-on-girl is purely about sex for a man's enjoyment and can never be about love. I have seen this critique in fandom before.
Personally, I find it awesome when a man likes lesbian porn and when a woman likes gay porn. It's fun. And I don't think people saying that slashing is gross is what's really going on here. I'm a slasher. The people who I know who are grumbling the most about this are actually slashers. I like Castiel/Dean. I've never had a het ship for Supernatural and yet I still find the fan politics hypocritical. The situation is:
Person A ships an Evil Sam with Ruby.
Person B cries out rape and wanks all over saying they shouldn't ship it.
Person B ships Castiel/Dean, and while not exactly the same (but really, was "you will have hot sex with this man" part of what he prayed for? The fic writer could put it in), refuses to address that he IS possessed at all and "OMG I am oppressed for people are not respecting my ship and saying I shouldn't ship it!"
That IS hypocrisy.
It's only a few people, so it's sad it's ruining things for others, but there are hypocrites when it comes to those ships.
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Male-centered lesbian porn has bothered me so hard. As with female-centered gay male porn. Yeah, they can fantasize, but, as a gay person, it feels sometimes as if we're being used, especially if said straight people didn't do their research on homosexuality. No, there isn't a "man" and a "woman" in a gay relationship. Most of the time, gay people will not want to bone someone of the opposite sex just because they show up. (Note: I say "most of the time"- because I (for one) am technically bi, but I just can't have emotional relationships with women beyond "Wham, bam, thank you ma'am" without it ending up in a total disaster; ergo, I call myself gay.)
I call people out on their hidden homophobia in fanfiction. Like once I got yelled at for correcting someone who said gay male sex made a guy crazy and a pedophile. I was told I was a homophobe, and to quit harshing their squee.