[ SECRET POST #4640 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4640 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 07 secrets from Secret Submission Post #664.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[kaijinscendre]

I loved the movie when I originally saw it. I still like it, but I think it was one of the reasons I wasn't a Captain America fan. Whedon just doesn't know how to write non-quippy characters. That line about there "being only one god" makes me roll my eyes.

[(Anonymous)]

OP - I hadn't seen CA:TFA when I went to see Avengers, so Avengers was my introduction to Cap, and I was honestly surprised by how much I liked him. I had expected him to be boring and macho, and I was surprised by how much character and heart he had. He struck me as pensive, kind, conflicted, a little bit of a square, and a little bit self-righteous. Which was plenty to be getting on with. So I don't agree that we writes Cap badly. That said, now that I've seen the CA movies, I do think Cap is better in them (especially Winter Soldier) than he is in Avengers. But that's also not terribly surprising, given the nature of Avengers as an ensemble and the nature of the first two CA movies as movies in which he is the lead.

[nightscale]

Yeah that line was just... such a weird one to have him say, I'm not a fan of it but I don't hate it anywhere near as much as the 'language!' line, like that one actively makes me want to slam my head into a table.

[kaijinscendre]

He was SOLDIER who grew up POOR in the FORTIES. He should be using fuck in every other sentence.

[nightscale]

BUT HE'S SO PURE, NO SWEARING BECAUSE MORAL CENTER SOMETHING, SOMETHING.

*Gnashes teeth*

[(Anonymous)]

Ok, I liked the language line. I thought it was cute, and have no problem with the idea of Steve as a little bit of a square who thinks swearing isn't *nice* or whatever. But I can understand the criticism of it. He's not a child; he's not actually naive; he's seen rough shit; he's taken part in rough shit, etc etc.

But what's the criticism with the "only one god" line? I'm an atheist, so I'm by no means a fan of Steve being a Good Christian Boy, but given when he grew up, it seems more likely than not that he would identify as Christian, and may not have really developed the modern day cultural sensitivity to acknowledge that lots of other people have different gods.

[(Anonymous)]

It's the fact that he didn't say "I think there's only one god" or something of the sort; he directly contradicted Nat's "they're basically gods" with a dismissive statement--"There's only one god."

Personally, I thought that clashed with his demonstrated cultural sensitivity given that he'd previously been shown to be both extremely adaptable (taking both the SSR and then SHIELD in stride), open to all hands on deck (the Howling Commandos), and generally able to accept all kinds of weird shit without contradicting it.

[(Anonymous)]

"they're basically gods" isn't Natasha's culture, tho. it's her being demoralized and overwhelmed for a second (or at least sounding like it). he's not proselytizing, he's rallying. I never felt like that line was about open or close minded-ness at all. It's about not giving up before they've even tried - which seems IC for Steve to me.

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT I didn't say it was Natasha's culture? I was just putting in from my perspective--which is, btw, as a polytheistic pagan, so "there's only one god" is always going to be tiring for me.

[(Anonymous)]

you didn't specify that it was her culture, but my point is, because it's not her culture, the remark doesn't read to me as indicating insensitivity on Steve's part in a way that would contradict his characterization elsewhere. Maybe insensitive on the part of the filmmakers, but not Steve. The fact that it bothers you doesn't make it inconsistent.

(I also don't think his adaptability in joining the SSR particularly speaks to cultural sensitivity, but other things do - the racial makeup of the howling commandos, primarily. but it seems to me that Steve isn't "sensitive" so much as...he respects the people in front of him as people. And he meets Thor and Loki and is pretty sure they're just people, too, and treats them based on their actions.)

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT (that other anon wasn't me)

I guess first and foremost, it’s a quippy line and I take it as a quippy line, and therefore I don’t feel the need to give it too much weight. It’s off the cuff and it’s meant to be. I feel the same way about a far more problematic quippy line from AoU, Tony’s Prima Nocta joke.

(I will say, though, that rewatching that scene for the purposes of writing this comment reminded me of my own least favorite quip in Avengers: "I have a plan: attack." Not scene-ruiningly bad, but totally a groaner, and not actually very in character. So we all have our gripes. *g*)

You make good points about him being demonstrably open-minded in other ways. However, as an atheist I am so far beyond accustomed to the fact that incredibly logical and brilliant people often keep their faith in a different, completely uncritical, part of their brain than they keep everything else. So it really doesn’t seem weird to me that Steve can be open-minded, because he’s an intelligent and compassionate person, while also taking for granted that God is God and saying so isn’t being controversial or stepping on anyone’s beliefs, it’s just basic Sunday school stuff.

da

[(Anonymous)]

another atheist here, and I'm really soured on whedon generally, but I really liked the 'one god' line

everyone seems to leave off the second half "and I'm pretty sure he doesn't dress like that" - which, while whedon-quippy, also seems to me absolutely like the kind of thing that Steve Rogers, deeply unimpressed with bullies giving themselves airs, would say

as well as something Captain Rogers would say. in context, he's telling Natasha, hey, don't think of this guy as invincible just because we know some old stories with his name in them! and not buying that propaganda is an important part of fighting loki! it's a good, smart move for him as a leader to show that he's not scared to make fun of this guy.

[nightscale]

I just find the idea that the WW2 vet is somehow put off by swearing or would find the idea of it off-putting annoying, it's not a 'this makes the movie bad' thing, I just find it irritating, probably coupled with fandom(at that time) making a habit of writing Steve as some idiot-child who couldn't figure out computers and other people swearing making him faint.

The 'Only one god' line I just find to be clunky and a bit too quippy? Which is silly to say about a movie full of one-liners, but I think for me it just hit maximum 'quip' and I didn't jive with it. Idk, I don't have much of a logical rationale for my dislike of that line, I just find it kind of annoying that's all.

[(Anonymous)]

but I think for me it just hit maximum 'quip' and I didn't jive with it.

That's fair. I rewatched the scene a moment ago and Tony's line, "I have a plan: attack," strikes me as way too quippy and unsubtle and eye-roll inducing. So I definitely get the whole, "eek, nope, too quippy" response. Joss does go there sometimes, for sure. I mean, he's really, really good at writing quippy lines. But sometimes he goes too far.