Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-11-24 04:41 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-11-24 04:41 pm
[ SECRET POST #689 ]
⌈ Secret Post #689 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
CITY STUFF → http://lolbuttsex.myminicity.com/
Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 316 secrets from Secret Submission Post #099.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 127
My point is that I think declaring a ship invalid on all counts and its fans delusional because it didn't end up canon and because you don't personally see it is a bad attitude to take on non-canon shipping.
That's because people who ship Sokka/Azula never say that it's a plausible couple in canon. Frankly, I didn't call anybody stupid for shipping Zuko/Katara - I called them stupid for thinking it was plausible that the show would go in that direction, which is something entirely different. I can see the hypothetical appeal of Zuko/Katara, sure. That doesn't mean it stood a snowball's chance in hell and the sooner people admit to that, the better. There's nothing wrong with non-canon shipping, but stop insisting it was so close to canon.
So, if you wanted a run-down of why I thought this was a plausible couple, it was because I saw chemistry in their interaction in the first season and because I could see that their characters might reach the point they actually did reach in canon, and I don't think it's absurd to think that a friendship such as Zuko and Katara have could develop into romantic feelings. It didn't happen within the scope of the show, but I think it could happen down the line. They're young, after all.
But why would you have thought it was a plausible couple in canon? What was it that happened that made you think "Oh, okay, maybe they'll ditch everythinig they've done with Aang and Katara and instead go with Zuko and Katara," right up to the very end, the day before the finale? I mean, sure, I can see why they might be romantically attracted to one another and where they might have chemistry. But I can say the same thing of Azula and Ty Lee - there's a difference between being able to see and like a couple and believing it will be canon.
Right. But we didn't know that was going to be the case in s2. I agree that by some point in s3 Katara/Zuko was clearly and definitively not going to happen. I don't care. I still ship it.
Then why are you arguing with me? There's nothing wrong with shipping it (though personally I think it would be an extremely unhappy relationship). The problem is, as the secret says, that people who thought it was going to happen and then got indignant about it were just deluding themselves.
Besides, I was actually perfectly fine with the way their relationship ended in the finale. I think their friendship is awesome. I was less pleased with Katara/Aang and Zuko/Mai, because I didn't buy it. Believe me or don't, but I actually shipped both Katara/Aang and Katara/Zuko until DoBS, but I couldn't buy the development of Katara's feelings at some point and therefore couldn't like Katara/Aang.
Personally I think the finale could have gone without shipping, but I understand that since it was a priority of the fandom, it became a priority of Mike and Bryan.
Re: 127
No, that's actually because I don't care whether or not they think that. Let them think what they want, who am I to judge? I'll just be over here, shipping something different.
But why would you have thought it was a plausible couple in canon? What was it that happened that made you think "Oh, okay, maybe they'll ditch everythinig they've done with Aang and Katara and instead go with Zuko and Katara," right up to the very end, the day before the finale?
Up until the end? Um, I didn't, and I explicitly stated that?
I've already said why I think Katara and Zuko, as people, could have worked. As for Aang and Katara? Because I didn't actually see much on her end. Because The Guru actually gave a pretty good reason why he might have to give her up, and I think the Avatar State is still a weird plot hole that never got closed up and should have. Because sometimes the hero doesn't get the girl, even if he loves her, and that's okay, and Avatar was a series that was different from a lot of the formulaic kid's series and broke stereotypes and could have gone that way.
By the sometime in the beginning of s3, it obviously wasn't going to happen because there wasn't enough time. During s2, though, yes, I thought it was possible.
Then why are you arguing with me?
Probably for the same reason you're arguing with me?
Personally I think the finale could have gone without shipping, but I understand that since it was a priority of the fandom, it became a priority of Mike and Bryan.
If that's the case, that they were influenced by fandom, well, they shouldn't have been. I actually have less respect for it that way: you should stick with your story, regardless of what other people think.
Re: 127
I'm arguing that Zuko and Katara were not a viable option in the canon of Avatar, and the people who were convinced they would end up together were deluding themselves.
If you agree with me, why are you arguing?
I've already said why I think Katara and Zuko, as people, could have worked. As for Aang and Katara? Because I didn't actually see much on her end. Because The Guru actually gave a pretty good reason why he might have to give her up, and I think the Avatar State is still a weird plot hole that never got closed up and should have. Because sometimes the hero doesn't get the girl, even if he loves her, and that's okay, and Avatar was a series that was different from a lot of the formulaic kid's series and broke stereotypes and could have gone that way.
It still broke stereotypes. That's another "zutarian" attitude - that by Katara and Aang hooking up, Avatar forever damned itself being immature and cliche. I mean, nevermind that the main character won through absolute dedication to pacifism...
It wasn't really a plot hole at all. The importance of love was a theme that was woven throughout. That Aang didn't give up Katara was themeatically consistent... I have a post about why that is somewhere if you actually care, but chances are you don't, so I'll just state that and move on.
If that's the case, that they were influenced by fandom, well, they shouldn't have been. I actually have less respect for it that way: you should stick with your story, regardless of what other people think.
How do you feel about editors?
Re: 127
I never said that. I in fact used the word "broke:" meaning I still think it did. I just point out that that was another stereotype it could have broken.
It wasn't really a plot hole at all. The importance of love was a theme that was woven throughout. That Aang didn't give up Katara was themeatically consistent... I have a post about why that is somewhere if you actually care, but chances are you don't, so I'll just state that and move on.
I agree that it fits the tone of the show. I still think it was a plot hole, because the point was whether or not Aang could control the Avatar State. I don't think he was totally in control in the finale: when he's about to strike the final blow, he has to forcibly take himself out of it. I think it could have been dealt with in a way that created conflict, which would have been interesting, instead of seeming to forget The Guru ever happened.
For the record, I don't mind reading about interpretations I disagree with if they're thoughtful and well-researched. It's if they're nasty and rude and take unfair pot shots at the other side of the argument (my side) that I start to have a problem. If they're not, and I disagree, I do so respectfully. If you wanted to point me to it I wouldn't be opposed to reading it.
How do you feel about editors?
Editors are fine, and not at all what I was talking about nor even remotely the same, and I think you knew that, so perhaps we should move on from that.
Re: 127
I still think it was a plot hole, because the point was whether or not Aang could control the Avatar State. I don't think he was totally in control in the finale: when he's about to strike the final blow, he has to forcibly take himself out of it.
Then... how is it a plot hole?
Re: 127
The long and short of it was that it was themeatically consistent, and Aang defeats the Fire Lord and ends the cycle of violence by choosing love (Katara) over power (The Avatar State), thus differentiating himself from Ozai. There were lots of Iroh quotes. Uh, yeah.
That's fair.
Then... how is it a plot hole?
Because he doesn't use it, it uses him, in a way. It's not a tool at Aang's disposal, like it is for Roku and Kyoshi and the avatars before him, because he doesn't control it.
The tone of the finale leaves me with the impression that the Avatar State is somehow a bad thing, that Aang rejects it along with the notion that he must kill to save the world. But it's not inherently a bad thing: what matters is how he uses it. Aang's a good kid, and he wouldn't use it for evil deeds or anything like that. If he can control it, he can and will use it judiciously, or never use it at all. Aang's spirit, as the finale points out, is pure: power will not corrupt him. Aang is actually more dangerous when he doesn't master the Avatar State, because he may in the future lose it and cause catastrophic damage, like he has in the past.
Basically, it's a plot hole because it leaves me with the question: "what if Aang needs to use it one day, and can't?" or "what happens if someone threatens the life of someone he loves again?" If he could control it, there would be easy answers, but there aren't.
Re: 127
Isn't that exactly what Roku said would happen?
The tone of the finale leaves me with the impression that the Avatar State is somehow a bad thing, that Aang rejects it along with the notion that he must kill to save the world.
It's been painting the Avatar State as a bad thing for quite a while though, so I think it's fair that you come away with that impression. I don't think the message is that Aang's spirit is pure and so he can "handle" the power - on the contrary, he gets "corrupted" by the power of the Avatar state numerous times. I think that they put the Avatar state in direct opposition to his spirit, and that part of Aang's victory comes in doing things differently from the other Avatars, from learning from their failings and learning to stand on his own. It never says that he won't someday master the Avatar state, but as with all other things, I think he'll do it on his own terms.
Basically, it's a plot hole because it leaves me with the question: "what if Aang needs to use it one day, and can't?" or "what happens if someone threatens the life of someone he loves again?"
That makes it a loose end, not a plot hole.
If he could control it, there would be easy answers, but there aren't.
I think that's the point. The path Aang chose wasn't the easy one. I don't think he's going to stop learning now that the Firelord is gone. Basically, the story of his becoming is complete, and that's one of the burdens he will carry going into the future. I don't think it's a bad thing that it leaves you with those questions.
Re: 127
When was this? (Any implied wankiness not intended, I actually don't remember this.)
I don't think the message is that Aang's spirit is pure and so he can "handle" the power - on the contrary, he gets "corrupted" by the power of the Avatar state numerous times.
"Corruption" is not a term I would use for him being unable to control this power he was born with.
It's hard for me to stomach the idea that the Avatar State is a bad thing. Roku can and does use it for good, and with temperance and judgment, and he is a character we are clearly supposed to look to as a mentor, as a guide, as he is to Aang. Has it corrupted him?
The Avatar State is a part of who Aang is. It isn't going to go away. If it's a bad thing then Aang has a bad side to him, and pretending it doesn't exist makes the problem worse. He may as well turn his back on his airbending. By rejecting it he rejects half of the purpose of the reincarnation cycle of the Avatar and his own role as the Avatar, and my impression was that this show was supposed to be about Aang coming into that role.
I don't mind him doing things a little differently. I have my own issues with how he defeats Ozai, but it's because I think about it a little more realistically than I should for a kid's show, and I am willing to concede this. But one of the big things I wanted to see with this series was how Aang resolves his problems with the Avatar State, and this was apparently to reject it outright, like it's clothing he can shed, and it's not. So yes, I see this as a major plot hole.
I don't think it's a bad thing that it leaves you with those questions.
I'm perfectly willing to be left with questions at the conclusion of a show, or a play, or a book, because sometimes the answer is "we don't know." I just got done doing a production of Company, and there are absolutely no answers anywhere in that musical. This is not a case I can accept. I think it is a major, major problem that I am left with these questions.
Of course Aang continues to learn. But when the whole show gears up to the moment when Aang will work through this issue, and he doesn't, it looks like lazy storytelling. To me, omitting this issue is as glaring as omitting Ursa.
In some cases it is acceptable, but it is not acceptable that Avatar does not properly deal with Aang's full role as the Avatar, Avatar State included.
On this, and on other points, we may have to agree to disagree. It is never not going to bother me.