[ SECRET POST #4855 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #4855 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 31 secrets from Secret Submission Post #694.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

07. https://i.imgur.com/anhylGX.png

[(Anonymous)]

Thanks for making my comment a secret, maker!

[(Anonymous)]

You're welcome!

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed. Yes it's fucked up that it's mostly used on female characters when so many male characters are the same and still get praised. But it doesn't mean the criticism isn't valid.

[(Anonymous)]

You can't call a guy a Mary Sue, the male equivalent is called a Gary Stu, though I agree it's less commonly criticized it's definitely acknowledged all the same.

[(Anonymous)]

Agreed. It does get misused too often, but that doesn't mean it's not still a very real thing.

[(Anonymous)]

Personally, I only consider it truly valid when it's being applied to a character in fanfic. It was a term that was coined from fanfic, and I don't think you can take it out of the fanfic context and still have it mean the same thing.

[(Anonymous)]

I mean even if it was coined in fan fiction it's always been a thing, and has always been criticized. It's like saying you can't call something 'slash' because it's originally a fanfic term. Like it's fine if you don't think so, but they have very specific definitions. Definitions that don't change outside the concept of fanfic, most harem/hero/chosen one storylines generally fit the Mary Sue/Gary Stu definition to a T. I don't see how it makes a difference when people write these characters for the same purpose regardless of if they're being posted or published.

[(Anonymous)]

but they have very specific definitions. Definitions that don't change outside the concept of fanfic

That's incorrect. Part of the definition of a Mary Sue is that it's an original character who is introduced into a pre-existing world, and is not written by or approved by the creators of that pre-existing world.

That's a fundamental aspect of the definition of a Mary Sue. If you remove the Mary Sue from the context of fanfic, you're negating an important part of the definition of what a Mary Sue is.

[(Anonymous)]

A Mary Sue is about a character type/personality, the application of the character is a very non-consequential part of what defines a Mary Sue.
No OC, or fanfiction for that matter, is written or approved by the creators of the pre-existing world. There are publications that 'continue' a long dead story that are considered as part of the canon, often this happens long after the original creator has passed away or are generally left unconsulted on the matter. Over specifying a character type by this sort of clause which has no baring on the actual personality/situation of the character doesn't actually change the definition of what a Mary Sye is. It passes more as an example than a rule.

There have been characters added to the cast in the middle/end of a series that absolutely qualify as a Mary Sue, like Mini-Moon for example. (which would technically pass the 'introduced into an pre-existing world' rule if that needs to apply)
It's about the purpose and personality, being perfect and talented, misunderstood with often a tragic past which only makes everyone love them all the more that defines what a Mary Sue is. Like any trope it can be applied to whatever character fits the description, being an OC has nothing to do with that.

[philstar22]

There is no single official definition of Mary Sue. That is just one definition.

[(Anonymous)]

DA but yeah, the original definition. And the one I'll be sticking with, because it actually makes sense and doesn't expand the def of a Mary Sue to something so vague and broad as to be effectively meaningless. But you do you.

[philstar22]

I'm skeptical as to whether there was a single universal original definition since it was a fandom term that just developed, it wasn't created and instantly defined. And even if it were, word meanings change over time. It doesn't just mean that anymore. Personally I don't think it means anything useful at all given how many definitions it has.

[(Anonymous)]

Disagree. I've been in fandom for over 20 years, and that was never the definition on/in any of the forums or communities I've been in over the years. It was always a very specific personality/character type that wasn't applied just to fanfic (honestly, it was used more for TV shows/movies/published books than fanfic in my experience).

[(Anonymous)]

DA - Dude, seriously, no. I've been in fandom since the mid 90s. A Mary sue is a fanfic trope. Of course the context of fic is an inherent part of the definition. It's a fanfic trope. The mainstream appropriated it. And by doing so, they fundimentally altered the trope.

[(Anonymous)]

In fandom since the late 80s here and have read the original Mary Sue 'essay' (from a ST: TOS fandom fanzine in 1973). AWRTY is right, though no doubt it has expanded.

[silverr]

I like the picture presentation, op!

[fizzyrose]

I agree that it can often be misapplied but that doesn't mean it's a useless term or that there aren't characters out there that don't deserve the title (Kirito from Sword Art Online is perhaps the most infamous Gary Stu and I've honestly never seen any other character that is hated by so many people in so many different fandoms as he is).

As for the people saying it has a very specific definition and can only be applied to fanfic: you're wrong. It's a character type. If that wasn't the case it 1. wouldn't be so popular outside of transformative fandom (as it so clearly is) and 2. there wouldn't be so many people trying to explain and define it. Everyone has a vague idea of what a Mary Sue/Gary Stu character is supposed to mean but the interpretations vary. Even if it started out as fanfic/fandom specific term it's since evolved as more people pick it up and use it (that's just how language works, folks).

My favorite interpretation of a Mary Sue is simply put a character that breaks the lore of their own universe (or more broadly breaks their "universe" entirely by existing). Where the character keeps doing things that shouldn't be possible and make little sense all for the sake of simply letting them do those things with little to no trouble, and the difficulty they are presented with in the name of giving them an actual character arc are usually contrived or lamp shading the fact the character can do anything and everything all the time even when that means doing nothing at all and since the writer is ~self-aware~ you're not allowed to critique them for it (because they're the best! and the coolest! and the most awesome! and isn't it fun when a character is the embodiment of godmodding their own story?!). The reason this character type is associated more with fandom (outside of originating from a parody fic) is that it's OCs that usually fall in to this trap. Most writers working on OG stuff are the ones that have written the lore of their stories and if they wanted something to be possible they simply would've written it to be so. However an amateur writer inserting an OC into their favorite fictional universe is very prone to the Sue Trap because OCs usually aren't designed with the rules and lore of that universe in mind, but just what seems the most cool or relatable to them. And I think it's apt with so many franchises bringing on people who aren't the original creators to make more content (*cough* nostalgia money *cough*) that it's a popular term to use.

And in my eyes there's three types of Sue (both the female and male varieties):

- The Action Sue: this character is super strong and super good at anything to do with fighting and has ALL the skills. What skills they don't have for plot reasons they pick up quickly and everyone's amazed at what a genius they are at punching the shit out of shit. There isn't a problem they can't solve by being OP. What are the other characters even for? They don't have to do anything because The Action Sue is so OP and cool that they can just handle everything themselves...the other people are just there for decoration and/or for a harem. It's like power fantasy turned up to 200 while being pumped full of liquid cocaine.

- The In-Action Sue: this stupid asshole never does anything. Literally, I mean it. They have no redeeming qualities. They suck. Their personality smells like a molding dishrag. But everything works out for them anyway! And everyone loves them!...unless they're evil in which case them not liking In-Action Sue is a sign they have a black heart and we shouldn't get attached to them and they're just going to be used to show how innocent In-Action Sue is and how anyone who doesn't worship they ground they walk on is a butthead pee pee poo poo. Usually featured in the romance genre. Seriously get a backbone In-Action Sue. And a better attitude. And some common sense. And...

- The Unholy Mix of the Two: the worst of both bad worlds. It's like the writer can't decide which extreme to go for so they just pick and choose which one the character will be based on nothing but what their farts smell like on a particular day or when a love interest is in a scene or not.

I could rant all day about Sues because honestly I think they're the easiest type of (bad) character to avoid writing so it makes me feel rage unheard of whenever I encounter one in the wild. Seriously, literally all you have to do is not have everything work out for them with little to no effort and that's it. You've avoided the thing. But that's just my opinion.