Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2008-12-08 05:00 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2008-12-08 05:00 pm
[ SECRET POST #703 ]
⌈ Secret Post #703 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 314 secrets from Secret Submission Post #100.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 149
Also fans ARE creators. We write, we draw, some fans go on to have their original works published. If we don't challenge our friends' and companions' responses when there might be underlying sexism, we run the risk of perpetuating the problem.
Also, there may not be as many interesting female characters, but I know for a fact it's hardly impossible to come up with ten interesting female characters. I could do it off the top of my head in about thirty seconds, so you can't blame "lack of interesting characters" for this.
Re: 149
Talking about the problem with how female characters are written is something I think we should do more, though. And I mean really discuss how and why, not just dismiss them.
Also fans ARE creators. We write, we draw, some fans go on to have their original works published.
Yes, and when we get published we get a golden opportunity not to make the mistakes the creators of the fiction we are fans of often make.
Challenging responses needs to be more of why fans dislike so many female characters, not the fact that they do it.
Also, there may not be as many interesting female characters, but I know for a fact it's hardly impossible to come up with ten interesting female characters.
I had some trouble (possibly because of the "major character" criteria), but I came up with eight, at least (Sakura from TRC, Elizabeth Bennett from Pride and Prejudice, Lina Inverse from Slayers, Miranda from D.Gray-man, Utena from Revolutionary Girl Utena, Ahiru from Princess Tutu, Yuuko from XXXholic, Susan StoHelit from the Discworld series). These are all characters that I actively like, not just feel are "all right"; I care what happens to them, and how they develop. They are all interesting to me, mostly because they all have character development. Most female characters never get any.
I'm curious, who are the characters you came up with?
Re: 149
Challenging responses needs to be more of why fans dislike so many female characters, not the fact that they do it.
I can do both at the same time, you know. Yes, creators are at fault for not always writing women nor writing them well. But fans just as often dismiss or belittle female characters who are either as badly written as the male ones or who aren't badly written at all, and that's a pattern within the fan community itself that needs to be addressed lest it perpetuate itself.
Honestly, I think the list thing is just a good way to check yourself-- sure, it's defensible and understandable not to like individual characters. But it's still a pattern that needs to be acknowledged.
My list?
Relena Peacecraft (Gundam Wing)
Ororo Munroe (X-Men)
Wonder Woman (Duh)
Gert Yorkes (Runaways)
Bela Talbot (Supernatural)
Claire Bennett (Heroes)
Brenda (Blue Beetle)
Tenoh Haruka (Sailor Moon)
Donna Noble (Doctor Who)
Anna (Shaman King)
That's... pared down quite heavily.
Re: 149
I'm actually not sure I agree (though it may be because we're in different fandoms); in my experience people are more likely to be forgiving of the characters they already like, and be more or less biased against characters that come in to oppose it, or tries to outshine it.
I also think that we are much more sensitive about stereotypes in female characters and the way they are presented, and since they are stereotypes we can't identify with and want to be rid of, we become angry with the character and want to be rid of her. Badly written male characters have a lot less "baggage" that speak to us on a personal level, so to speak.
I can do both at the same time, you know.
Yes, it's certainly possible, but what I see in fandom is most often attacks on other fans. I recently got a link from someone in this comm that led to what she said was a "balanced write-up of the problems with the Supernatural fandom"; the author, however, dismissed large parts of fandom as nothing but "screaming fangirls", "bitches", and similar. These words are not even unusual when it comes to these discussions, and I find it very worrying (and misogynistic) how parts of fandom refer to each other.
Not to say that there aren't proper analysis of characters too, but my impression is that attacks are more common.
But fans just as often dismiss or belittle female characters who are either as badly written as the male ones or who aren't badly written at all,
And in this case I think it's much more useful to attack the person's argument, not her presumed reasons for feeling a certain way about a character. The sweeping generalisations are completely useless, and will only make people upset and defensive. I also think that comparing two characters just because they're badly written is a straw argument; you have to look at how they're badly written, so to speak. Male characters don't have the same history and clichés as female characters do. Context matters; that male characters are badly written is also a problem, but generally not the same problem.
and that's a pattern within the fan community itself that needs to be addressed lest it perpetuate itself.
Honest question: What would you say would be the best way to do this?
I'm actually not in most of the fandoms you listed (though I can't believe I didn't mention Donna in my own list; I absolutely love her, and cried in her last episode). The only one I was ever in was the GW fandom, and it's been... about eight years since I left it. O_o I never came to like Relena, but my feelings changed from active dislike in the start of the series to indifference towards the end. I've watched a bit of Heroes and read a bit of Shaman King, and I liked Claire and intensely disliked Anna.
I think one problem with fans and female characters may also be that sometimes you just really really dislike a character for no good reason. Is it because she's female or because she just rubs you the wrong way? In these cases I think the absolute worst thing you can do is tell someone how they feel, why, and that they're a terrible person for doing so.