fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #4934 ]

[ SECRET POST #4934 ]

⌈ Secret Post #4934 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.

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02.

[Bojack Horseman]

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03.

[The Chicks, Taylor Swift]

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04.

[The Infinite Loops]

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05.

[Troubleshooter: Abandoned Children]

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06.

[Star Trek: Deep Space Nine]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 10 secrets from Secret Submission Post #706.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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07. https://i.imgur.com/p1CDxnU.jpg

I agree. There are exceptions when the use of particular aesthetics is blatantly disrespectful even to me, but for the most part I don't really get the outrage. Especially like my own culture, which is quickly fading among younger generations--I'm happy when I see other people using or borrowing cultural elements, because it means I can feel slightly less guilty that I'm not doing my part.

Would not try to argue this anywhere normally. It's not worth it...

I agree way too much.

For me, I think it matters on the context, and whether or not the origins are mentioned/if the objects (or whatever it maybe) are used in a manner respectfully/nodding to the culture (i.e. if it is a practice or object that in X particular culture is sacred, please be respectful of that).

I think people are always going to have differing opinions on the matter. What tends to bother me is just that in many instances, the culture is just a prop...and often it is at the hands of someone who is using it to "look cool" or what have you. So it's okay now because it's you, but if I do it/use it, it's considered less/seen as a stereotype or unworthy of having cultural capital.

For example, do I have a fit anytime someone on a tv show dances salsa? No. Of course not. But would I feel uncomfortable if I saw someone using the music/aesthetics of a lesser known traditional dance from my country? Maybe. Again, here the context is important. Who is dancing it? Is it part of the scene? Is it a nod to the culture? An introduction? Is it mentioned? Or is the character in question merely using this as a prop to look a certain way (and it is not mentioned later/no history of the dance is mentioned)? It is often contextual. There will be things that bother me and not somebody else, even if we come from the same place. That said, I do like learning/sharing about other cultures, and sharing my own. But that is a sort of in-person experience quite often.

This is very well said.

This.

Agreed.

Thissss I can't help but feel a sense of pride when I see even distant countries adopting parts of my country's culture. Also, each culture has so much to offer and we can learn so many things from so many other peoples (like, oh, what has happened in history over tens of thousands of years).

Agree. Unless it's making some kind of gross or vulgar statement with something that's spiritually significant or sacred, i think more people need to see more things of as many different cultures as possible.

Agreed.

If the cultural element is used in a way that mocks the people of the culture it belongs to, or misrepresents the culture it belongs to (particularly in a negative way), then yeah, that’s shitty.

But the majority of the time, simply borrowing/emulating cultural elements is not, in and of itself, disrespecting other cultures.

Context always matters and I think the problem is a lot of people try and simplify it to 'if you're not x you can't use y from x culture' when in reality people of culture x may love to share y. Like, even to the point where I've seen people post 'dont buy this if you're not culture x!' When the sellers, of culture x, specifically say that people of other cultures can buy it.

Like
Do your research, make sure it's respectful and double check you're doing it right if possible.

Edited 2020-07-09 23:00 (UTC)

case in point, not that long ago there was a weird tumblr callout telling people they can't wear, enjoy, appreciate, or buy kimono if they're not Japanese. Kimono is one of Japan's treasured cultural heritages that they are deliberately sharing internationally as a means to keep love for kimono and the art involved in making them alive. Too many artisans have died with their secrets to the best painting and dyeing techniques already, they're trying to preserve what's left by literally sharing kimono with the world. So anyone saying you can't wear kimono if you're not Japanese is basically spitting in the face of the Japanese themselves.

(fair disclosure I own 12 kimono and 3 summer yukata myself and have read up on the proper ways to tie obi, how and when to wear them in what fashion, etc, and I deeply respect the art of creating kimono. also summer yukakta are hella comfy right now)

This is one of the things I was thinking about! But I didn't remember the details enough to say anything so, thank you!

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(Anonymous) - 2020-07-10 00:01 (UTC) - Expand

Yep, I learned a traditional Japanese handicraft from a professional Japanese artisan (one of the very few who are left) who was teaching classes specifically BECAUSE she wanted to pass on the knowledge to other people and keep the art alive.

This was an interesting one, because Japanese-Americans were doing the callouts (because they'd experienced being mocked for wearing or learning about their traditional clothing and other traditions) and Japanese people in Japan saying "No, we want everyone to learn about kimono", because they hadn't been treated the same way. It wasn't "spitting in the face of Japanese", it was a different group of Japanese people.

This, exactly. I have also noticed that it's mostly white people not from the culture they're "defending" who go down this road.

Stuff from/inspired by other cultures is usually fine with some caveats.

Like, buy it from someone who is part of that culture if possible, make sure it's not stolen, make sure it's not sacred/offensive for someone not of that culture to have. Basic decency stuff.

Oh, and don't do like that one Californian dude who tried to trademark poke.

Context matters, but seemingly not in the eye of the general public. I think older media gets less intense rhetoric wrapped around it, but new stuff is really heavily scrutizined. Even if the piece is well-intentioned.

I'm not sure if the intense scrutiny (without consideration for context) is beneficial or harmful, though. It may be that media is going through a trial-by-fire era where some lessons have to be learned quickly so standards are set for the future. Or it might be that we start seeing nothing but white culture because movie execs and the like are too scared to go near minorities or other cultures, even with the most agreeable of said populations in their writing rooms, editor's chairs, or sets.

I don't know. I understand OPs fear that they're going to stop seeing their culture at all. I suspect a lot of laziness and fear from some media sectors like movie and TV. If they think they'll get in trouble, I don't think they'll try to do it right. I think they'll just take the safest bet. Which means I hope we all really enjoy stories about white dudes and their feelings.

reiterating the sentiment itt that context really matters. for instance, i don't get offended seeing non-mexican people paint their faces in the style of day of the dead skulls. i love the way it looks and p much every time i have seen like a makeup youtuber do a calavera look they have a lil blurb about the holiday and cultural significance which is nice because it's part of something more than just the face paint. but the face paint is also rly beautiful! so i get why people are drawn to it. and the more people celebrate it, the more people are struck to learn more about it, and i just think that feels nice!

my mom loves seeing dia de los muertos imagery on stuff, no matter the source, bc she just associates it w her childhood and likes being surrounded by it. honestly, i've heard more upset about it and cultural appropriation from second+ generation mexican-americans. and i don't want to discount that. like i get the impression they feel disconnected from the culture through their family (especially taking into account how sometimes immigrants are put into a situation where assimilation is safer and it just naturally leads to your children losing your culture without it being a conscious decision). and being schooled on your heritage from corporations/hollywood/whatever else is a rly weird sort of bothersome? if that makes any sense haha

see this makes me really curious. I work at a Joann Fabrics off and on, and I see a lot of Dia de los Muertos-themed fabric, crafts, etc come through my warehouse. And a lot of it makes me really uncomfortable, even though I'm like scandanavian-level white and have no horse in this race. Like, a fabric print of dogs and cats as skeletons with Dia de los Muertos heads/faces. I don't like it, but I don't know if I'm right or wrong to be offended on the behalf of people for whom this is a cultural practice.

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venusundae - 2020-07-10 00:28 (UTC) - Expand

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(Anonymous) - 2020-07-10 01:24 (UTC) - Expand

I agree with this.

I was recently called out online for cultural appropriation because I used Arabesque motifs on a pysanky I was writing. Now, I'm not Ukranian, either, but they didn't have a problem with me taking up a hobby from another culture, just using some of the beautiful design patterns from a third culture. They called me an Orientalist and I'm like... maybe? If you mean I just think that the styles and patterns of some traditional Arab designs are gorgeous and want to see them in pretty colors on eggs...?

I think as long as people are respectful and acknowledge the aesthetics they borrow from other cultures, they shouldn't be shouted down for enjoying the totality of the prettiness of the world.

Edited 2020-07-10 00:49 (UTC)

What you see on tumblr and around is usually a case of kids who mean really well, but don't understand what the problem actually is (e.g., when the white European "interpretation" of another culture's tradition is given more validation and popular acceptance than the original) skip straight to a weird "all ethnicities must only participate in cultural practices that originated with them" brand of segregation.

In non-internet life, there's also a... let's call them the "Joy Luck Club" faction, of 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants who are resentful of people outside of their ancestral culture adopting aspects of that culture's fashion, art, cuisine, whatever. Generally, this happens when your parents were big on making sure you assimilated into the dominant culture and you resent that other people are dabbling in traditions that you were semi-forcibly divorced from.

TL;DR: Cultural appropriation is a real thing. But a lot of people keep using that word and it doesn't mean what they think it means.

Gosh, thank you. THIS really sums it up.

This is just a personal example and I'm not Japanese but I think it's ironic how, in internet culture, it's perfectly alright to go "oMg JaPaNeSe ArE sO cRaZy xD wEiRd CoMmErCiAlS!!!" but wanting to know more about actual wafuku/kimono is absurd...?

In other words, I don't think there's any actual shift in perspective (ie. viewing/judging of things from a very ethnocentric perspective, particularly by people in a privileged culture/country/etc. and subsequently judging everything and everyone on basis of those "dominant cultures" ...) when some white person from some developed country goes "ENJOYING THINGS FROM OTHER CULTURES IS PROBLEMATIC!! DON'T DO IT" and doesn't really know why it is problematic, thus can't explain it to others; it's just a lot of, well, censoring and needless segregation in my opinion. But yeah, we keep making those dumb rules because it's 2020 and humanity is still full of bigots. (Like the one who wanted to trademark poke - I had no idea that was a thing lmaoo)

Agreeeed! If it's done without being insulting/bastardizing the culture, I don't necessarily see the harm. It seems to me it gets magnified 100 fold on the internet (shocker) to the point where it almost feels like no one is allowed to share culture. How we can share culture if no one's allowed to consume media outside of their ethnicity? I get that people mean well, but when taken the extreme I think it can be counter productive.

I think it can muddle things, too, when "cultural appropriation" (in quotes now because, as discussed up-thread, this can mean different things to different people) is treated as equally as bad as some other more direct forms of racism, including say, shouting racial slurs at children, verbal/physical harassment... I've seen this and it blows my mind.

Plus, when I see familiar objects from my parents' culture, I get excited and happy, and I dont want to lose those rare small moments of recognition

Ditto. As long as it's being respectful then I people don't mind. In fact, I've seen many people welcome it because it means their culture is being aknowledged and shared, which is super important and incredibly nice. People are more than happy to talk to you about their respective cultures.

I agree that borrowing aesthetics isn't inherently harmful, but I think calling it harmless, saying that no one is being hurt, and suggesting that it doesn't have actual consequences means that you either don't understand the potential harm or don't care. Which, frankly, I don't know who has cultural control over your culture's perception. So if your culture has control over how your culture is viewed to all audiences, you're probably right about harm!

But as someone whose culture is habitually packaged for sale globally (sometimes with help of my own people), copied endlessly, and is also subject to forced assimilation at the same time I see plenty of harm, of which copied aesthetics are just perpetuation of such harm.

And whatever harm comes from appropriation because the power is not tilted in the appropriated culture's favor is going to be there regardless of whether the appropriated like it, want it, assist it, enjoy it, or not.

Edited 2020-07-10 06:55 (UTC)

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