fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #757 ]

⌈ Secret Post #757 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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[Higurashi]

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[Higurashi, Miyo Takano]

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[Spider-Girl]

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[Onyanko Club]

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[Chowder]

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[School Days]

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[Skins]

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[Demons, Ruby/Rupert]

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[Ayreon, Magali Luyten]

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[Gurren Lagann]

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[Heroes]

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[Barney Stinson, How I Met Your Mother]

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[Supernatural]

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[Gundam Wing]

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167. [repeat]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 21 pages, 525 secrets from Secret Submission Post #109.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 2 - posted twice ], [ 1 2 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I don't think you and I are having the same argument. Let me aim for clarity here.

You implied that I wouldn't be able to handle arguments differing from mine on the gay marriage issue. This isn't true, and this is what I was addressing when I challenged anybody (not you specifically) who doesn't agree with me on it to formulate an argument against me. (Hell, I welcome it--it's such an easy argument to win.) The OP actively refuses to formulate an argument.

Do you see? I'm attacking apathy again. When a person is confronted with an issue, they have to either gain knowledge and take a stand, or they have to admit their refusal to take part in the debate. This second option, ignorance and apathy, is never, ever something to be proud of. Right, yeah, we can't all have opinions on every issue affecting society because nobody is going to be able to gain the all of knowledge needed to form constructive ones, but when we can't/won't take part in the resolution of a problem, we shouldn't act as if this is the proper position to take.

This is my problem with the OP. Like it or not, her views on slash are part of society's greater views on homosexuality, because she is a part of society. Therefore, the gay marriage issue is a pretty direct consequence and affects her, and probably many people she knows, pretty directly. The fact that she's acting like it doesn't is what makes her a hypocrite, or at least in denial. Her pride in refusing to be part of a resolution is what makes her pathetic. A person can't be proud of doing nothing.

You take issue with the language I've used in my comments, saying that it isn't constructive towards pulling people to my side of the argument. What I say to that is, arguing for gay marriage is not what this particular debate has been about, and also, when I do argue that issue seriously in a different context, I handle myself differently. The OP, in this case, has specifically chosen a forum in which she isn't to be reasoned with. Until she finds the wherewithal to defend her position, I don't particularly feel like paying her the lip service.

I wasn't meaning to imply that you were unable to handle a rational argument, just that it seemed you were putting a standard on me (coming up with a rational argument) that you weren't following yourself. I mistakenly took it as a challenge, and I guess I kind of got carried away in the tl:dr sort of way.

What happens when someone gets informed, or is presented with information, and after getting informed feels like they cannot take a side? What happens when there's a conflict of interest (say, somebody's a devout Catholic, but also knows gay people that he doesn't feel should be discriminated against?) and someone feels the only thing they can do is NOT to take a side?

I agree with you that uninformed apathy is something to be avoided, even if people don't want to become activists. But there are reasons that people have for not taking a side that aren't based in ignorance. Someone might just not be able to decide. I'd have to say I respect someone who's informed, but indecisive much better than someone who's got an opinion, but isn't informed. (A lot of the people I went to high school with who claimed to hate the former President, but never gave any justification as to why, come to mind.)

I'm not pro-apathy as much as I'm anti targeting apathetic people. I think someone can opt out of an issue if they want to, and it's not really good but they shouldn't be harrassed over it. Forced participation ("you're with us, or you're against us" type attitudes) also give causes a bad reputation, and although I'm not involved with the gay rights movement, I do want to see legalized marriage, or damn good civil unions happen. I think it'll undo some of the progress that people have made in society seeing gay people as someone who could be their neighbor instead of some sick deviant, if suddenly you're a homophobe for not participating with the cause. Apathy is a step above contempt.

I don't have a problem with swearing. Mostly, it was that I thought you were being aggressive and intimidating rather than using superior facts and debating skills. And arguing for gay marriage wasn't what this debate was about, but what would have been wrong with attempting to convince her to get involved instead of hanging around insulting her?

I'll concede the point of informed indecisiveness, you're right there. It's just that it's not a situation that comes up all that often, except in cases where an issue is so vast that it's pretty near impossible for the average person to feel that they've heard all sides of it.

The OP here represents the kind of active refusal to gain information on an issue that is the real and far more common problem.

I think it'll undo some of the progress that people have made... if suddenly you're a homophobe for not participating with the cause. Apathy is a step above contempt.

This, certainly, but that isn't exactly the issue that arose here. Most of the time, when does one even get the opportunity to 'target' apathetic people? In being apathetic they become pretty hard to spot. If one does happen to end up in a conversation with someone like this, well. I wasn't advocating targeting anyone. Since you're referring to the way I handled the OP in particular, I'll say that I based my behavior on my reaction towards hers.

what would have been wrong with attempting to convince her to get involved instead of hanging around insulting her?

It's not how I'd handle myself in every situation, no, but at the same time I'm not particularly inclined to apologize for how I handled myself here. This is what I mean by basing my behavior off of the OPs--she made a statement in a manner that pretty much shuts her off from all reasoned debate, so I didn't feel like paying her the lip service.

If I felt like I could change her mind, maybe, but her behavior makes it seem pretty much shut.

Apart from the original comment, how did she behave? Did she out herself as someone who's been commenting?
I know a different anon suggested that the OP was the one girl with the 13 (I think?) icon, but did she ever admit it, or was it somebody else? Or does your assessment of her behavior come from the original post?

Apathetic people are as easy to spot as anyone else- most pro gay-rights people aren't wearing rainbows, and most anti gay rights people aren't wearing "Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve" buttons. Most of the time it just comes up in conversation. "Grrr! I'm so angry about Proposition 8!" "Um... I don't really care about that stuff."

I don't think you need to apologize. We probably just have different strategies for handling this kind of thing.

Posting anonymously in a comm not intended for political debate says quite a bit. Also apparently not having a conversation with any of the people on her f-list that she says would disagree with her.

Most of the time it just comes up in conversation. "Grrr! I'm so angry about Proposition 8!" "Um... I don't really care about that stuff."

That's exactly what I mean. It's not something I'm too comfortable generalizing a strategy for--if I came across this, I'd have a different conversation with every person.

[ SECRET POST #757 ]

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