fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #758 ]

⌈ Secret Post #758 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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[Matt Damon]

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[Jonathan Coulton]

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108.

[Devil May Cry 3]

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[Rahm Emanuel]

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[Ryan Ross (of Panic At the Disco)]

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[GemCraft]

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[Casualty 1907]

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[Johnny the Homicidal Maniac]

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[Peltsi/Ile, YleX radio station]

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149.

[George Clooney, "Good Night, and Good Luck"]

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[Scream 2]

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[Air Gear]

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[Demons]

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[Us, Relationship Counselor Extraordinare]

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[David Tennant]

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[Us Again, and the Creative Use of Carrots]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 18 pages, 430 secrets from Secret Submission Post #109.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - too big ], [ 1 2 - repeat ], [ 1 2 3 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

107. So you're using that "So bring your favorite lady/ Or at least your favorite lay" couplet in First of May to say he's a misogynist? Lyrics and themes in the work do not dictate the personality of the artist. If that was true, Stephen King would be a serial murderer.

109. On that same tack, religion does not dictate personality. The few times I've been in the company of Jason Lee he was a gracious, fun, and down-to-earth dude. (And thank you for the bonus Fred Rogers! He was an amazing guy as well.)

149. Not only hot, but also a gigantic brain. And he seems like the kind of guy you'd love to knock around with and join in his poker game.

150. Scream 2! Possibly the most excited I've ever been to see a movie in the theater. Pissed me right off when they both died before the hour mark hit.

157. So would you say that, um, you want it all?

1st of May is just one of many - how about The Town Crotch? If it were just one song I wouldn't necessarily think/assume he himself was sexist, but it's a theme I hear over and over in his lyrics - women are stupid ("The Future Soon", "Skullcrusher Mtn"), the narrator wants them even though he's so much smarter than they are ("Skullcrusher Mtn"), he only wants a rich chick - specifically for her money ("Til The Money Comes" and "Millionaire Girlfriend") - or as a generic "someone" to save him from a miserable existence ("You Could Be Her"). How about Overhead? "Once in a while, I go out of my way/To kill you, a little".

I read and like Stephen King and I think the difference there is that even though he does write about women in situations where they're being stalked etc, the women themselves have agency and strength and they end up winning. The most recent example of this I read was "The Gingerbread Girl". So what you take away from the text is not a put-down, unlike with JoCo.

I can definitely see where you're coming from there. Mostly I try to separate the author from the work, as in disliking the work as misogynist rather than the creator, but I understand your argument much better now that you've elaborated. To be honest, my impression of the man himself from interviews and meet-and-greets seems is one of an upstanding individual, but there's definitely some problems in what you've cited.

What's funny here is that you've mentioned pretty much the only JoCo songs I don't love. My taste runs towards either the totally bitter towards everyone ("Shop Vac," "I Crush Everything,"), the sentimental ("A Talk with George,") or the just wacky ("Mr. Fancy Pants," et al.). Maybe it's just my own evasion of the themes in music that have led you to your conclusion that makes me think differently about the man.

I can see where you're coming from -- if certain themes turn up in an author's (or singer/songwriter's) work a lot, then that may very well say something about him. However, I still think it's problematic to attribute the views of the narrator to the writer. Jonathan Coulton's songs are usually "in character", and there's no clear indication that we're supposed to like or agree with the character. The narrator in "Skullcrusher Mountain" is clearly a villain -- are we supposed to sympathize with him? I mean, personally I always thought the point of the song was that it was supposed to be funny that the character just doesn't see what he's doing wrong with women when any sane person can see why his behavior is less than endearing. And it's also (I think) poking fun at fictional villains who behave that way -- I mean, I can imagine it coming out of the writer thinking "Why do villains always seem surprised that the heroine hates them when they've kidnapped her and done xyz evil thing?" The "but I'm way too smart for you" line in particular I figured was meant to be seen as egotism on the narrator's part -- that sort of stereotypical villain does tend to think very highly of himself, after all.

And songs like "Millionaire Girlfriend" I thought were playing around with/gender-inverting the old idea of young women dating or marrying rich men for their money, and so I don't think it's any more demeaning to women than, say, "I'm Going Out With an Eighty-Year-Old Millionaire (http://www.kirstymaccoll.com/music/lyrics/i%27m_going_out_with.htm)" is to men.

But that's just my (incredibly tl;dr) opinion, so... yeah.

...you know that Skullcrusher Mountain is supposed to be ironic, right?

I mean, it's about a fucking supervillain, it's not like it portrays the woman mentioned as being unreasonable except in the blatantly ironic view of the narrator.

Shit, like all of those are supposed to be facetious.

Um, "Overhead" is gender neutral. Seriously, go read the lyrics. No pronouns or any indication of gender.

And even in your own examples, you are missing the vital pattern: all the narrators are socially inept losers who have no chance of getting what they want, be it a woman, money, or anything. They're supposed to be pathetic characters that we look down on. JoCo is, believe it or not, not actually a "serious" musician. His music is good, yes, but each and every one of his songs is meant to be ironic (Except for "First of May" which is meant to be a fun, modern take on the ancient fertility rites, which were about having great, non-partner-specific sex)

[ SECRET POST #758 ]

107, 109, 149, 150, 157

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