[ SECRET POST #764 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #764 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.


__________________________________________________



102.


__________________________________________________



103.


__________________________________________________



104.


__________________________________________________



105.
[Buffy]


__________________________________________________



106.


__________________________________________________



107.


__________________________________________________



108.


__________________________________________________



109.


__________________________________________________



110.


__________________________________________________



111.


__________________________________________________



112.
[Being Human]


__________________________________________________



113.


__________________________________________________



114.


__________________________________________________



115.


__________________________________________________



116.


__________________________________________________



117.
[Prince of Tennis]


__________________________________________________



118.


__________________________________________________



119.


__________________________________________________



120.


__________________________________________________



121.


__________________________________________________



122.


__________________________________________________



123.
[Lost]


__________________________________________________



124.
[Liza Minnelli/Judy Garland]


__________________________________________________



125.
[Camille Desmoulins]


__________________________________________________



126.


__________________________________________________



127.


__________________________________________________



128.


__________________________________________________



129.


__________________________________________________



130.
[Heroes, Matt Parkman/Noah Bennet]


__________________________________________________



131.


__________________________________________________



132.


__________________________________________________



133.


__________________________________________________



134.


__________________________________________________



135.
[Bakuman]


__________________________________________________



136.


__________________________________________________



137.


__________________________________________________



138.


__________________________________________________



139.


__________________________________________________



140.


__________________________________________________



141.
[for the non-UK: pissed = drunk]


__________________________________________________



142.
[Iron Chef]


__________________________________________________



143.


__________________________________________________



144.


__________________________________________________



145.


__________________________________________________



146.


__________________________________________________



147.


__________________________________________________



148.


__________________________________________________



149.


__________________________________________________



150.


__________________________________________________



151.
[Psychonauts]


__________________________________________________



152.


__________________________________________________



153.


__________________________________________________



154.


__________________________________________________



155.


__________________________________________________



156.


__________________________________________________



157.


__________________________________________________



158.


__________________________________________________



159.
[Gossip Girl]


__________________________________________________



160.
[Superman, Batman]


__________________________________________________



161.
[The Iliad]


__________________________________________________



162.


__________________________________________________



163.
[Persona 4]


__________________________________________________



164.


__________________________________________________



165.


__________________________________________________



166.


__________________________________________________



167.


__________________________________________________



168.


__________________________________________________



169.


__________________________________________________



170.


__________________________________________________



171.


__________________________________________________



172.


__________________________________________________



173.


__________________________________________________



174.
[Jojo's Bizarre Adventure: Stone Ocean]


__________________________________________________



175.
[Liz Lemon, 30 Rock]


__________________________________________________



176.


Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 20 pages, 492 secrets from Secret Submission Post #110.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

170

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

If I may step in...

They pick out slash for the following reasons:

1) There actually just aren't that many m/f platonic friendships in media.
2) Most of the friendships that there are are m/m rather than f/f.

This means that more slash basically = fewer intimate friendships or other platonic relationships. The tension between platonic/erotic often doesn't exist or isn't as strong when it comes to m/f, because m/f relationships so often have romantic undertones anyway.

Re: 170

[likespring.livejournal.com]

There may be fewer m/f relationships that are BFF in the same way that many same-gender ones are, but there are a number of m/f relationships, whether casual friendship, professional, etc., that lack any more romantic undertones than any other relationship. And I rarely see people crying about folks shipping het relationships where there is no "real" romantic undertone -- that only happens when it's slash.

Re: 170

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

Again, I think it usually comes back to the position that m/m relationships have in fiction as compared to m/f. You're right, there are plenty of m/f relationships that aren't explicitly romantic - but, just like you said, there are few that are BFF.

To use an example: House. There are a few relationships on the show that are explored in depth, everything else is taken for granted as though they were friends or colleuges. But, you'll see that every relationship in this show involving a woman has at least some kind of flirtatious underpinning - even Wilson/Cuddy and House/Thirteen, lately. However, you have relationships between House/Chase, House/Foreman, House/Wilson, House/Taub and House/Foil Of the Season that are never explicitly romantic.

I don't know. I just believe that there is a tension between friendship (or sometimes rivalry) and sex and that slash is often the battleground for it. A lot of it, I think, just has to do with the way that fiction is written.

Re: 170

[likespring.livejournal.com]

But I'm not sure what your point with that is. It's not like m/m or f/f BFF relationships are so rare that to explore the romantic side of one degrades it, and so it's important to explore the friendship side more because of that. If anything, as we've discussed here, that's more applicable to m/f friendships, but shipping those is rarely a problem.

But, you'll see that every relationship in this show involving a woman has at least some kind of flirtatious underpinning

That may be the case for House, but not all fandoms. Some of mine have m/f relationships that don't have any real flirting or other romantic implications.

And another thing is with perception. There's not always proof that such flirtatious undertones are anything more than just meaningless flirting; and sometimes, there is also that kind of interaction between two guys or two women. And yet, if it's m/f, it's okay to interpret that as romantic and write about it, but if it is m/m or f/f, you get accused of reading too much into it and distorting canon, etc.

I think I might be confused, tell me if I'm not following you

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

My point is that there's a false dichotomy between friendship and romantic relationships, and that by making m/m relationships romantic, you're eliminating many of the possibilities for friendship. The issue isn't that M/M or F/F BFF relationships are so rare - it's that usually, that's all there is! When everyone's slashing it, there are no platonic relationships left.

That may be the case for House, but not all fandoms. Some of mine have m/f relationships that don't have any real flirting or other romantic implications.

Of course. So do some of mine. I'm just trying to make an example using a popular show.


And another thing is with perception. There's not always proof that such flirtatious undertones are anything more than just meaningless flirting; and sometimes, there is also that kind of interaction between two guys or two women. And yet, if it's m/f, it's okay to interpret that as romantic and write about it, but if it is m/m or f/f, you get accused of reading too much into it and distorting canon, etc.

True, sometimes it goes nowhere, but it was still put there. And you do get accused of reading too far into it because more often than not, the writers aren't deliberately putting it there in the same way they put in the m/f flirtation. Really, it's heterosexist writing, not that people are pointing it out, that is the problem there.

now tell me if *I'm* not following

[likespring.livejournal.com]

The issue isn't that M/M or F/F BFF relationships are so rare - it's that usually, that's all there is! When everyone's slashing it, there are no platonic relationships left.

Well, everything is being shipped by someone out there; I doubt there's a single pairing that's not being shipped, whether it's m/f or f/f or m/m/f or whatever.

I think I'm pretty sure I get what you're saying, and I agree. I personally like when there are fics that explore friendship or any kind of other non-romantic relationship. But if someone does ship those particular relationships romantically, that doesn't ruin it (or remove the platonic relationships) in the original context.

What I don't get is how that is an argument of any kind against slash in particular.

because more often than not, the writers aren't deliberately putting it there in the same way they put in the m/f flirtation.

But fandom and shipping in general don't strictly follow the writer's intent and/or canon.

This would be a valid argument if we were arguing canon vs. non-canon pairings, but as far as I know, we're not. The OP of the secret didn't say s/he disliked non-canon pairings, which I assume would include het and would only have a few minor problems with (like you mention, the restriction of heterosexist writing). The OP specifically mentioned slash and slash only, without any mention of canon/non-canon.

Re: now tell me if *I'm* not following

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's not an argument against slash. Like.. I'm not trying to argue against slash - I'm just saying, I think that this is a part of the root cause of the argument that is taking place. It isn't a valid argument, per se - slash isn't "the problem" at all. I was just stepping in to answer your question as to why people don't harass het shippers about the friendship thing.

But fandom and shipping in general don't strictly follow the writer's intent and/or canon.

You're right, but what I was talking about with flirtation and intent was the idea that it's setting a precedent. When you see a pretty girl in an action movie who talks to the hero a lot, you know well enough to say "Oh, they're going to wind up together," because that's what happens. People carry these readings with them, and it frames the way they view fiction. It's just another reason why slash is threatening to friendship, but het usually isn't - het friendship is often deliberately sprinkled with these "hints" or is treated exclusively as a prelude to romance. Like you said, not always the case, but often enough to affect the way that many people consume media.

Re: now tell me if *I'm* not following

[likespring.livejournal.com]

Oh, I figured you weren't arguing against slash, but rather presenting what might make someone make a point like in the secret. And I can truly understand how that would lead someone to be somewhat annoyed with slash, but I still don't get (and probably won't ever get) how it would lead someone to hate slash as the OP of the secret does. I'll give that point up, though, because you aren't the OP and I can't expect you to be a mind-reader!

Like you said, not always the case, but often enough to affect the way that many people consume media.

That's true. But even if/when there is a absence of hints (or again, a lack of any more "hints" than a same-gender friendship would have, which again goes to perception) and people ship those heterosexual friendships, there's rarely the same kind of arguments, which is one of my major problems. Am I making sense or just repeating myself?

Re: now tell me if *I'm* not following

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

Well, this is just my observation of the situation. I don't think people consciously sit there and think about it, it's just sort of a kneejerk "No, no, they're supposed to be FRIENDS!" kind fo reaction.

You're making sense, I'm not sure how to reply without repeating myself though. People don't make those arguments because we live in a heterocentric world with heterocentric media and even people who really aren't homophobic have an archetype to refer back to. A M/F romance out of an M/F friendship is just automatically seen as more plausible/less threatening, just 'cause of the overall context of all media (and, well, life).

I don't think that's it fair and I don't know what the solution is. I just wanted to provide an explanation other than "they're just homophobes."

Re: now tell me if *I'm* not following

[likespring.livejournal.com]

A M/F romance out of an M/F friendship is just automatically seen as more plausible/less threatening, just 'cause of the overall context of all media (and, well, life).

OH. Now I really get what you're saying -- that sentence made the light bulb go off -- and I agree completely. Sorry for not Getting It until this point! It's not fair or necessarily correct, yeah, but it makes a whole lot of sense.

Re: now tell me if *I'm* not following

[paperclipchains.livejournal.com]

Haha, it's probably not your fault, I'm horrid at explaining these things.

Re: 170

[cleverthylacine]

There are waaay too many people I know who bitch that my slash pairings "eroticise" and "demean" male friendship who give me this look of complete incomprehension when I tell them I hated Mulder/Scully and what it did to Scully's career and character, desperately wished Hermione Granger would tell both Ron and Harry to grow up and fuck off, then date someone who appreciated her intelligence, and that I cringe while Foreman breaks every professional ethic he ever had (not that he had a lot) to bang 13 who is not only his co-worker but also his patient in clinical trials.

I don't think people like this are defending friendship and platonic love, I think their heteronormative asses are showing.