fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #773 ]

⌈ Secret Post #773 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 12 pages, 300 secrets from Secret Submission Post #111.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

Slash - m/m pairings. Term used most often in western fandoms.
Yaoi - m/m pairings. Term used most often in eastern fandoms.

I'm confused as to why they're so utterly and completely different.

Okay, I'll bite.

Yaoi, at least for me and probably a lot of people, connotes this idea of a tiny, weepy, girly uke and a big, strong, manly-man seme who rapes the little uke in his boy-pussy anus and then they fall in love sparkles sparkles. It really is no different than the most horrible, cliched forms of het, and fosters this culture of fetishizing gay men and trying to fit them to these awful, heteronormative stereotypes. I'm not even going to get in to the disgusting misogyny that festers in yaoi fandoms.

Slash, while guilty of borrowing a lot of the said tropes, doesn't seem to be as horrible of an offender to me. Perhaps because of the lack of a visual component.

There are plenty of valid reasons for hating yaoi that I think don't necessarily mean a person is homophobic. But what do I know. Because I think yaoi is demeaning, I am automatically a horrible tire-ironing homophobe who only exists to harsh the squee.

What about bara?

Bara is the same thing with hardcore, just with muscular guys. WHY bara fans miss that, I don't know.

It really is no different than the most horrible, cliched forms of het

This attitude really puzzles me. Why are these cliches considered annoying but acceptable in het fandoms, but horrifyingly offensive in slash/yaoi? Do you think it's "demeaning" to make men act in a stereotypically feminine manner?

trying to fit them to these awful, heteronormative stereotypes

Stereotypes which, as you said, are equally prevalent in het fic. Do you hate that, too?

There are plenty of valid reasons for hating yaoi

No, there are plenty of valid reasons for disliking yaoi. Anytime a person gets insanely upset over something this trivial, I tend to assume that they have issues. Those issues may not be homophobia, but there is definitely something going on with them that has absolutely nothing to do with yaoi.

Because I think yaoi is demeaning

I believe that you dislike yaoi because it's demeaning about as much as I believe those fangirls who say they like slash because they're gay rights activists.

Do you think it's "demeaning" to make men act in a stereotypically feminine manner?

I don't think it's demeaning to men, if that's what you're asking. I think it's demeaning to women. The uke stereotype is just every awful stereotype about how women should look and act in relationships applied to someone who happens to have a penis. There's a difference between being feminine and being weak, and the uke archetype equates those two.

Stereotypes which, as you said, are equally prevalent in het fic. Do you hate that, too?

Um, yeah. Those stereotypes about women being weak little delicate flowers who get raped by manly, crazy, buff guys and then fall in love? I hate that shit too, and I hate that people like you think I must be some sort of rabid hetshipper to hate yaoi. I don't. Tbh I like gen more than anything.

Something you don't seem to get, though, is that heterosexuals don't have to prove anything about their relationships. It IS offensive and degrading when these cliches are used in heterosexual relationships, but there are plenty of examples of healthy, not-utterly-creepy relationships that don't indicate that all straight people are like that. How many healthy, non-stereotypical examples of homosexual couples are there in the media? Like it or not, gays are still an oppressed class, and we can't just pretend that all media portrayals are equal.

Anytime a person gets insanely upset over something this trivial, I tend to assume that they have issues.

Gender issues? Misogyny? I think those are things worth getting upset about. But you know, that's just me being a crazy, raging homophobe. *eyeroll*

Those stereotypes about women being weak little delicate flowers who get raped by manly, crazy, buff guys and then fall in love? I hate that shit too, and I hate that people like you think I must be some sort of rabid hetshipper to hate yaoi.

When did I call you a rabid hetshipper? My point is that you hate yaoi categorically because it features sexist stereotypes, but don't seem to hate het, even though it uses the exact same stereotypes. I'm just wondering why you hold yaoi to high standards than het.

Gender issues? Misogyny? I think those are things worth getting upset about. But you know, that's just me being a crazy, raging homophobe. *eyeroll*

You're putting words in my mouth. I specifically said that a person can have an irrational, vitriolic hatred of yaoi and not be a homophobe. Since I don't know you and I can't read your mind, I don't know why you hate yaoi. But since you're totally okay with het as a genre, even though it's just as sexist as yaoi, I don't think that misogyny has anything to do with it.

I'm just wondering why you hold yaoi to high standards than het.

Because yaoi involves a social minority, one that has been oppressed and degraded for years worldwide. Het does not. In fact, the whole point of yaoi is that it involves a social minority. I find it terribly disingenuous to equate the two.

Let me try this again. There may be horrible stereotypes of how heterosexual couples should act. This is bad. However, there are plenty of examples of non-stereotypical couples. The reverse is not true for homosexual couples. Therefore, I think that people who are interested in social equality, and in seeing fair representation of homosexuals in the media should demand something more than just yaoi, which is just a repackaging of heterosexual gender stereotypes topped with a massive, massive helping of misogyny.

What bothers me the most is that yaoi turns homosexuality into a fetish. Homosexuality is not a fetish.

[ SECRET POST #773 ]

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