[ SECRET POST #780 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #780 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.
[Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure]


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102.


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103.


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104.


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105.


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106.


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107.


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108.


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109.


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110.


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111.


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112.


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113.
[ShakespeaRetold; The Taming of the Shrew]


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114.
[Bones]


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115.


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116.


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117.


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118.
[Torchwood]


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119.
[Skins, Freddie]


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120.
[resized]


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121.


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122.
[Nintendo Power, Nester comic]


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123.


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124.
[the lonely island, jorma/andy]


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125.
[Are You Afraid of the Dark?]


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126.


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127.


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128.


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129.


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130.
[Bill Hicks]


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131.
[Dollhouse]


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132.
[Dr. Horrible]


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133.
[Merlin]


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134.
[Pride and Prejudice]


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135.


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136.


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137.
[Roger Bart]


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138.
[Demon Knight]


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139.


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140.


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141.


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142.


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143.


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144.
[Candy]


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145.
[Knights of the Old Republic]


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146.
[Dr. Who]


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147.


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148.


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149.


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150.


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151.
[Rockers]


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152.
[Soul Eater]


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153.
[Scrap Heaven]


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154.


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155.
[Avatar]


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156.
[Erin Kelly, Loving Annabelle]


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157.


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158.


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159.
[Joe Biden]


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160.


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161.
[Bleach]


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162.


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163.


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164.


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165.


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166.


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167.


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168.


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169.


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170.


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171.


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172.


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173.


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174.


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175.



Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 320 secrets from Secret Submission Post #112.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

I've never seen it as a fetishization of gay people so much as the fetishization of attractive men having gay sex. It doesn't seem to be spreading broad misinformation about the way that real gay men act, at least not to the extent of lesbians in Western male-directed pornography.

I may need to do research on this.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[(Anonymous)]

To be honest, I've never really gotten the impression that most real men believed lesbian porn to be like lesbian reality. As far as I know, I was under the impression that most men who have had sex at all realize that real sex is nothing like the fantasy world of pornography, whether straight or lesbian. (Then again, who knows. My impressions are not backed up by statistics, and perhaps I have too much faith in other people. I grew up in a comparatively liberal environment, where the white men were generally willing to treat women as equals and where people actual knew real-life lesbians.)

Similarly, I realize that most (sane) yaoi fans don't really believe that actual gay men act the way characters act in yaoi. At least, I have to. For my own sanity.

My concerns with yaoi/lesbian live-action porn are mostly about abstractions and power differentials, not the way that yaoi/lesbian live-action porn consumers interact with real-life homosexuals. Though the latter is a problem, certainly, it's not as insidious and morally troubling, to me, as unchecked psychological privilege.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

What exactly would "Unchecked psychological privilege" be, and why is it worse than what happens in real life?

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[(Anonymous)]

I guess I'm just curious (not the anon from this thread, but the anon the other anon has been talking to on the other reply branch) but why do you care what the fangirls think as long as they act respectful to other people? Unchecked psychological privilege? Are you saying that it's really important how other people view the world, independently of how they act?

That's creepy. Fandom shouldn't be the thought police, I had hoped we were better than that.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

Er...did you mean to post this to me? I don't even know what unchecked psychological privilege is.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[(Anonymous)]

Original anon.

Why do I care what other people think? Because thought influences our interactions with other people. People should be questioning what they think, if what they think is dehumanizing and fetishistic.

Are you saying that it's really important how other people view the world, independently of how they act?

This is a misleading question. I do not think that you can separate one's worldview from one's actions. But even if you could, it is really fair to say that right views + right actions are somehow exactly equal to wrong views + right actions? I personally reject this utilitarian view of human interaction.

And I'm not "being the thought police." I'm not actively persecuting people for their opinions, I'm debating with them.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[(Anonymous)]

I'm very utilitarian, and I agree that people should question their views. And I'm still up to debate that dehumanizing and fetishistic are NOT the same thing. Being sexually attracted to a person or by something they do isn't mutually exclusive with seeing their humanity.

Right views + right actions is equal to wrong views + right actions, from the perspective of anyone else. Assuming psychics don't exist, there's no way to tell what the hell anyone else is thinking. They could be valuing someone as a beautiful, unique snowflake, or seeking if they can get away with looking down that person's shirt without getting caught. Your question is misleading, too, I suppose- I really don't think sexual attraction is the wrong views!

You're trying to imply that there's a right and a wrong way to think, when thought itself isn't entirely voluntary. To me, right = respectful of one's self and others, and wrong = harmful to one's self and others. Thought itself doesn't do that.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[(Anonymous)]

It is what happens in real life, just on a macro level, and over time. I'm more concerned with the big picture of the kyriarchy than with small-scale, individual events of discrimination and dehumanization.

I am a little more familiar with dialogue on racism, so I'm going to try and substitute (perhaps inappropriately) my understanding of race relations.

Suppose you have a white, male cop. He sees a black male with some of his friends driving past. He suspects they may be "up to no good." He stops them, searches the car, and discovers that they are transporting crack cocaine. The case goes to court. The men are jailed for the maximal time allowable.

I don't really care that, in this particular instance or that particular instance, this particular person arrested that particular person. The white cop may be have perfectly innocent relations with minorities the rest of the time. He may be married to a black woman, even, and have children. He may find the use of the word "nigger" horrifying. In my opinion, none of this really matters. I don't care.

So, what do I care about? I care about the fact that in this instance, none of the people in positions of power are going to have their latent privileges questioned and checked.

Is the cop going to consider: Why did I decide to pull over this group of individuals, and not a group of white individuals who may have been acting in a similarly non-suspicious manner? Does it matter that, in this instance, the individuals in the car were male as opposed to female? Why were these individuals transporting crack cocaine in the first place? What conditions in society had to be present for these individuals to resort to doing this illegal activity?

Is the judge going to consider: Why are the legal restrictions on crack cocaine so much harsher, comparatively, than those on powder cocaine? Why are more black men arrested for drug possession than white men? Why are black men more likely to get maximal sentencing time than white men? Why are there more whites on juries that are ostensibly supposed to be "juries of peers"?

Maybe these doubts and questions will crop up, once or twice. But 99% of the time, probably not. THAT is what worries me. It disturbs me to no end when people do not think about the implications of their actions in larger society.

Likewise, while it disgusts me when yaoi fangirls treat real-life gay men as cute little puppets for their fantasies, it doesn't disturb me half as much as the fact that these fangirls aren't going to ever think about and question the origins of their actions, why they are harmful, and how they should change them. "Unchecked psychological privilege," in my view, is the ability to avoid having to confront the nastier and more insidious aspects of the assumptions and views we hold.

Does that answer your question? It is too early in the morning for me to be doing this...

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

A cop, a man with personal power as well as majority power, stopping a group of black people is far different from a woman getting off on homosexual sex between fictional, idealized images of men. The latter's actions harm no one and don't need to be changed in order to better society.

They don't need to confront their nastier aspects because there ARE NONE. It's porn, and for that matter it's porn free of the degradation and health risks that come with much of the live action porn industry.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you. You're doing better arguing this that I am. ^^

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

It happens when I'm bored. :p

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[(Anonymous)]

Just because something is porn doesn't give it a free pass to not be critiqued. That yaoi is free of degradation is debatable, and just because some kinds of porn are objectively worse for certain people's health is not a good enough excuse, at least for me, for why people shouldn't criticize yaoi.

Okay. I did warn you that my simile might have been inappropriate. Let's ignore it, then. I still think that heterosexual women do have a position of institutional power over homosexual men (though not in all instances), and that to deny this is willful blindness.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[(Anonymous)]

You know what? I give up. I think porn enjoyed by a majority group that specifically involves members of a minority group as its primary fetishistic draw is harmful and creepy. You do not. We have reached an impasse. This really boils down to the fact that I think thought and action are intimately linked. You seem to think that they are not. I guess this is argument is absolutely pointless. I doubt I can convince anybody else of my position: English is not my first language, rhetoric is not really my thing, and I have an unpopular opinion. Considering that the vast majority of people here would agree with you anyway, I suppose you have won the internet argument already. Smile! Feel superior. Bask in the glory.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[(Anonymous)]

I really just wish that people had debated the initial questions rather than turned this into a referendum on my opinions. They're just that, my opinions. I don't expect other people to have them, or agree with them.

But I suppose it's always more fun to turn things personal than keep them abstract.

Re: *presents credentials from the university of my ass*

[seiberwing.livejournal.com]

As said elsewhere, I'm not here to play oppression Olympics. Both groups have different problems in different ways. But the act of creating yaoi and the act of enjoying yaoi IN THEMSELVES are not harmful acts, and any instances in which either of those cause harmful acts are probably extraordinarily rare and most likely influenced by outside factors.

Live action porn can involve actors working in unhealthy conditions for bad pay or under duress. The worst you get with yaoi is an underpaid artist with a mild cramp in his arm.