Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-02-23 05:06 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-02-23 05:06 pm
[ SECRET POST #780 ]
⌈ Secret Post #780 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
[Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure]
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102.
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103.
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104.
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107.
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108.
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109.
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110.
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111.
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112.
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113.
[ShakespeaRetold; The Taming of the Shrew]
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114.
[Bones]
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115.
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116.
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117.
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118.
[Torchwood]
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119.
[Skins, Freddie]
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120.
[resized]
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121.
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122.
[Nintendo Power, Nester comic]
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123.
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124.
[the lonely island, jorma/andy]
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125.
[Are You Afraid of the Dark?]
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126.
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127.
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128.
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129.
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130.
[Bill Hicks]
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131.
[Dollhouse]
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132.
[Dr. Horrible]
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133.
[Merlin]
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134.
[Pride and Prejudice]
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135.
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136.
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137.
[Roger Bart]
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138.
[Demon Knight]
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139.
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141.
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142.
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143.
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144.
[Candy]
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145.
[Knights of the Old Republic]
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146.
[Dr. Who]
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147.
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148.
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149.
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150.
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151.
[Rockers]
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152.
[Soul Eater]
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153.
[Scrap Heaven]
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154.
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155.
[Avatar]
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156.
[Erin Kelly, Loving Annabelle]
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157.
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158.
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159.
[Joe Biden]
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160.
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161.
[Bleach]
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175.
Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 320 secrets from Secret Submission Post #112.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 127
1) Personally, I don't think so. Not any more than the treatment of women as sex-toys in heterosexual porn (which is generally by men, for men) is morally wrong. They all have the potential to be skeevy for misogyny and gender issues, but none of them are inherently "wrong".
I've seen your responses, and I tend to disagree on the issue of fetishization. Part of the reason why pure porn (that is, porn separated from more plot than it takes to get the clothes off) works is because it's simple. This is most easily accomplished by using stereotypes. The goal of porn is to arouse the viewer, and it accomplishes that goal. Real-life issues, characterization and more than a sketch of a plot would detract from that goal, so they're ignored. It doesn't matter whether the porn is lesbian, gay or heterosexual: there is fetishization of the human body and stereotyping of almost everything occurring. One type is not inherently worse than another type. The damage begins when that fetishization and stereotyping extends beyond the goal of the work into life.
To state a very personal opinion, I rather feel sorry for the treatment of heterosexual males in porn. According to (American, at least) porn, they're all strong, rugged, "manly men" who dominate in the bedroom and have 13" penises. How is that less demeaning than the weepy, submissive female stereotype?
2) I don't play the Oppression Olympics. Privilege is privilege, and oppression is oppression. One is not somehow "better" or "worse" than the other. Actions based on those views can be, but in and of themselves they're equal.
For your last question... I believe it has to do with the goal of pornography. I think one of the big questions of yaoi/shounen ai/slash is that its point is completely misconstrued. (In this case, I believe they all have the same issue, btw; I don't think they're all the same thing.)
These forms of entertainment are aimed at primarily heterosexual women. This audience is interested in watching/fantasizing about/fetishizing a male body. But because women tend to enjoy plot and romance with their porn (thus why Harlequin is often thought of as the female equivalent of porno), this generally requires another player/character. And as with all things, if one (male body) is good, two should be better, right? A female could be used, but a female body isn't what the audience wants. That can be gotten off of any bookshelf. So the story becomes about two men. Homosexuality is often thrown in as a given, because under these circumstances it's unavoidable. But that's not what it's about.
The plot is what causes things to get complicated. Part of the point of a story is to identify with one of the characters and to "live the story" through them. Most romance manages this via the main female lead, but we've already decided that we can't have a female in the romance for this part. So one of the male characters becomes a reader stand-in, and might become stereotypically feminine in the process because that's what the reader has been trained to expect by society. (Which raises entirely new points of misogyny that I'll skip.) Some works don't have that issue, but Sturgeons Law comes into effect and it's much easier to write a stereotype than a character.
That's why it's more important that they're men than that they're gay. One of they giant peeves for a lot of people is the characterization "he's not gay, he just loves [insert character]". Another is the "everyone's gay" issue. They're both horrible writing and insulting to actual gay people, but they're examples of how yaoi/slash/shounen ai aren't about gay men.
LOL, I ran out of space! Continued below.
Re: 127
Part of the reason why (again, I think!) yaoi/slash/shounen ai fans get up in arms about it is because they are predominately women in a heterosexual male society. Not only do they have to deal with the still painfully prevalent idea that women aren't or shouldn't be sexual beings, but their chosen entertainment presses so many panic buttons for the dominate class (who feel threatened by female sexuality/empowerment and homosexuality both) that there's this... feeling that everyone "else" outside this group thinks you're wrong. That there is something sick and disgusting about you because you enjoy this, and you should be ashamed. So it's hidden away and talked about anonymously or among very close friends. It becomes "us" versus "them", because no one wants to be told they should be ashamed of something. But that means when someone comes up and wants to know what it's all about, even innocently, the first reaction is closer to "RAWR" than anything rational.
It's a messy, complex subject that I'm sure is being studied by a lot of people who are smarter and more educated than I am. But that's pretty much what it boils down to for me.
Re: 127
(Anonymous) 2009-02-25 10:33 pm (UTC)(link)I love you. I'll have your children, if you'd let me. give you anything you want because your answer is made of win and awesome. especially the second to last paragraph.
Re: 127