fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #781 ]

⌈ Secret Post #781 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 240 secrets from Secret Submission Post #112.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - bandwagons ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

What privilege?

Google "Christian privilege." I picked two articles from the first page of hits:

http://web.archive.org/web/20071211063858/http://pirate.shu.edu/~schlosle/cpexamples.htm
http://www.iowastatedaily.com/articles/2009/02/17/news/local_news/doc499b19d20daa3478464064.txt

And one more:
http://modernmitzvot.wordpress.com/2009/01/26/a-gentile-privilege-checklist/

A lot of those depend on where you live. There are some place I wouldn't want to put a Jesus feesh on my car, for instance. Also I'm pretttty sure Jews and Muslims can talk about their religions pretty openly, at least in my experience. Further, all of these things except for perhaps the background checks bit are extremely trivial to everyone but hardcore atheists/anti-religious folks. I mean seriously.

at least in my experience.
Which is as a Christian.
Which is the whole point of the concept of privilege.
Your experience is not others' experience.

Further, all of these things except for perhaps the background checks bit are extremely trivial to everyone but hardcore atheists/anti-religious folks. I mean seriously.
As someone who is neither (I'm Jewish)...trust me, it's really not. And I live in a pretty tolerant area.

I'm not going to take the time to actually try to write out a coherent defense of this in a Livejournal secrets community, but I'd point you to the metafandom section on religion, and encourage you to look through it:
http://delicious.com/metafandom/religion?page=5

It's not that I don't think people in fandom can be nasty to Christians, or that I think it's in any way okay for that to take place. I just have to fight the urge to facepalm when I see a Christian complaining about intolerance, because...you're the dominant culture. Your [general you] mores have saturated both fandom and IRL, and so thoroughly that you don't even realize it.

INTOLERANCE OF A DOMINANT/MAJORITY GROUP IS STILL INTOLERANCE.

The idea that it's not, and the fact that so many people in fandom agree with that idea, is making me wish I could find a place in fandom where I didn't have to hear about white/male/straight/Christian PRIVILEEEGGGGEEE BAWWWWWWWW and why it makes it okay to be rude to people as long as they're white, male, straight, or Christian. I go online to get away from hearing people whine about being butthurt about PRIVILEEEEGEEEEEE in real life.

It is NOT okay to refuse to tolerate people simply because they're in a group that's oppressed others. Learn some fucking manners.

Whoa, at what point was anon rude? A question was asked, anon provided a few links to articles and then responded to the other commenter in a way that was perfectly civil. No one is advocating rudeness; in fact, no one was even being rude until you showed up.

Attempting to shut down conversation on privilege and minority/majority relations because it doesn't affect you and you're sick of hearing it? Is a textbook example of exercising majority privilege. It's almost funny, except for the part where it's offensive and rude.

In short: your ass is showing. Go put some pants on.

Thanks!

-other anon

I'm not saying people can't ever talk about it. I'm just saying that people seem to be talking about it in places where it's not appropriate. And yeah, I think you WERE trying to shut down someone's valid concern. The implication of what you were saying was that it was okay if people discriminated against someone for being Christian, because in the real world Christians had privilege, which in turn implies that privilege justifies discrimination. Do you really think that's true?

Fandom secrets is not the best place to wank about controversial real-life issues. There are places this belongs, and places it doesn't. Also, I never specified that it doesn't affect me. Is it possible I'm not in every privileged group, and still don't feel like this is a topic that needs to come up every post? Because obviously people who think this isn't the best discussion for everywhere and all the time are racist/sexist/homophobic/discriminating on the basis of religion.

It's not that I don't think people in fandom can be nasty to Christians, or that I think it's in any way okay for that to take place.

I'll learn some fucking manners when you learn some fucking reading comprehension, love.

If everyone agrees that it's not okay for peole to be nasty to Christians, then why are we discussing this? What does privilege have to do with it if we can agree that the actions in question are wrong? Do we need to get in a "well, yeah, the way they're treating you is bad-- but they're only doing it because you're so much more powerful than them and they don't know how else to respond to it!" It sounds like, "sorry that happened, but it's your own fault."

I...don't think I ever said anything like that.

My point wasn't that they bring it on themselves (they don't), but rather that the "persecution" they face (e.g. "OMG someone on the Internet said Catholics are mean and uptight and I'm not like that at all sadface sadface") is probably considerably less than that faced by members of any other religious group, or, in many areas of the U.S., non-believers.

I wasn't attempting to shut the OP up, or say his/her concerns were invalid, but just to provide some perspective that overall they have it pretty good in ways they might have not even considered.

And then came a slew of comments, yours included, that just seemed not. to. get. it. I liked the comment asserting that the markers of privilege weren't a big deal to anyone not anti-religious.

Maybe I'm just a little sensitive. In the last month or so, I've seen material lying around my fairly tolerant campus urging the death of everyone in my religion, seen posters with the symbol of my faith crossed out, and been held to task for the actions of people I've never met in countries I've never been to. I've been told by people on my left that my beliefs are arcane and ridiculous, and by people on my right that they're inadequate. Even online, I've been referred to with derogatory language. People are under the impression that I control the media. When I open up the paper to read about Bernie Madoff, or Israeli actions in Gaza, my first that is that somehow, someone is going to think I share the blame for it. And usually, I'm right.

So, yeah - when there's any place where having a "Catholic name" is an identifiable safety threat, when people hold you accountable for the actions of Vatican City - get back to me. But I hope you don't have to, because it's not all that fun.

Maybe trivializing the OP's concerns would have been a more appropriate way to put it. I'm sorry for what's happened to you, and I don't think that's okay- people really should have gotten over anti-Semitism a long time ago. And yes, I would say that seeing fliers around your college campus advocating killing you is a lot worse than people dismissing others in fandom because of religion (and I'm guessing the stereotype is more "Catholics are repressed, want to control everybody's morality, and hate gays" than just somebody being thought of as uptight and getting butthurt over it.)

But why does it have to be about what's worse? Why do we need to play "who's the most oppressed?" It's bad that people discriminate against Jews. It's bad that people discriminate against Christians. Yes, Christians are the majority group, but don't you still share the experience with them of seeing people have irrational hatred for your religious group? Isn't the point to end religious prejudice rather than to end religious prejudice against everyone but the majority?

[ SECRET POST #781 ]

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tl;dr

Re: tl;dr