Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-02-24 04:28 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-02-24 04:28 pm
[ SECRET POST #781 ]
⌈ Secret Post #781 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 240 secrets from Secret Submission Post #112.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - bandwagons ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: 150 OP
(Anonymous) 2009-02-25 06:27 am (UTC)(link)'Personality' may have been the wrong word. One of their 'characteristics', perhaps? In canon, though, it's the preferences they've displayed (such as Kakashi's porn and Naruto's crush/bond) which are the only reference we have for their orientation, and since as far as I can recall there hasn't been similar evidence to the contrary, it seems to me that the scale slides more in that direction rather than being equally balanced.
In the case of those two, I won't deny there's more leeway for interpretation, even though I don't take that interpretation myself. I probably didn't link it well enough, but the comment about OOCness was directed more towards two of the pairings you don't know. In both of them, one of the characters involved is, canonically, married and with kids; if you want an example, replace them with the Minato/Kakashi or Asuma/Kakashi pairings. We do know that Minato and Asuma are straight because they're married and there's not been any evidence that they may have be interested in men; IMHO, making them gay or bi thus makes them OOC.
I appreciate the fact that you don't see Naruto as gay, just as in love with Sasuke, because it does annoy me when people seem to equate loving someone as being attracted to the gender as a whole. I have to admit, though, that that particular pairing is perhaps my least favourite. Not because they're both male, but because I disagree with the fact that someone could only feel as deeply for Sasuke as Naruto does if the relationship is romantic in nature. I don't see feelings as going on a scale from 'acquaintance -> friend -> romantic interest'; I believe that platonic love can be just as deep as romantic love. I see Naruto as loving Sasuke, certainly, but I disagree that the relationship needs to be qualified by romance, and it disappoints me that we as a society seem to be so fixated on romance that it's the only thing which depth of feeling can equal.
I did try not to generalise too much, since I know there are very good slash-writers out there, but I obviously didn't succeed, so I apologise for that. If you reread that 'interaction as sexual' line, though, you'll find I'm referring to society in general, and I also say 'potentially' sexual: I don't think that every slash-fan out there will see all interactions as sexual, but I do think that sex and romance has soaked so far into society's consciousness that we tend to view interaction through tinted lenses. I can appreciate that you don't ship Naruto and Sasuke for the sex, but as I said before, IMO the presence of love doesn't necessitate it being romantic in nature.
I apologise for giving you the impression that I think slash must equal sex, but ... well, that has been my experience; most of the slash fics I recall seeing only seem to care about the sex, and those fics are the ones that are the most eye-bleeding. It's probably just that my experience is different to yours--the overwhelming number of fics I've come across in which the pairing seems to just be the medium for sex is part of what has oversaturated my tolerance to explosion point. Although, a romantic relationship does usually imply there is a sexual relationship of some kind to go with it, and even in the well-written fics I've read it's been there, so perhaps it's not unrelated.
Yeah, a lot of it is crap, but there are also authors out there who write really really good stories. It's worth sifting through it all to find one of those jewels; it's just a little harder on non-romance readers like me because so much of it is romance.
Re: 150 OP
See to me, a lot of how Naruto interacts is something to the contrary of that being a character traits of his. And I still think...that "Reads porn=100% heterosexual" is still a large leap in logic. Or a...a flat one? It flatten out the whole spectrum of sexuality, and all the shades of bisexuality, to two strict categorize.
And I do agree with you, I think you can love friends as strongly as loved once. For example, my first fandom was Sailor moon, and I think many of those bonds were as strong as the romantic one. Or...Iruka and Naruto. Or Chouji and Shikamaru. I just don't think...that relationship, with my experience, doesn't read as a deep friendship. it reads as...well, as a lot of fucked up, but....(Maybe, in fact, part of the reason I don't see it as a friendship is because Sasuke is such a crappy friend) I don't think someone couldn't feel that way, I have a friend I'd die for, I just...don't think it's that. It the WAY they interact, not the intensity.
I do see what you mean more with Minato and Asuma but you do have to look at...I'll use myself as an example. I was straight, super straight (I was, in fact, Sakura-like).
I think the issue is looking at it as a whole and you really...can't. Because the worse, most OOC slashy "We stick them together cause they're hot." has nothing to do with a well thought out, well researched fic.
(I do agree that sex and romance are tied, I just....your original reply seemed like romance followed sex, and I believe it's generally the other way around)
I have no idea if you have intrest, but this (http://sowell.livejournal.com/38982.html#cutid2) was, imo a well written fanfic, that the romance came secondary to the characters, was subtle, and IC (And the sex isn't particularly any forms of explicit.)
Re: 150 OP
(Anonymous) 2009-02-25 08:46 am (UTC)(link)I do agree that it's a flat justification, which is why I didn't want to bring it up myself--but since you did for me, I thought I may as well address it, and it is one of the few hints we have. In that sense I don't really have an argument for why they shouldn't be considered homosexual ... but then again, there isn't a whole lot of argument for why they should be, either (though I'm sure there are those shippers who would disagree).
*nodnod* To be honest, now you've put it that way, I can see it a bit more, though I have to wonder how Sasuke's being a terrible friend is going to make him any better or different as a lover. I will admit that a big part of the reason I dislike the pairing is for the principle that love=/=romance alone. It has to do with another pairing, for which the relevant characters are great friends (not a Sasuke there~), and the idea that they would be lovers just cheapens their relationship for me. Naruto and Sasuke are a little similar, so I may be carrying over intent.
With Minato and Asuma, I do see your point, but I also think there's got to be a place where we draw a line. The fact that the two of them are married are a good indication of where they both stand on the subject; it makes me question why there's any need to look any deeper, and why there's any need to attribute other pairings to them when they've already got someone filling the slot. Even if they were attracted to men beforehand, the fact they both marry women indicates what choice they've made.
You're right; not only is it unfair to generalise too much, because there are good authors out there, it's also self-destructive to look at all the pairings as a whole because ... there's just so many different pairings, it's overload. But it's also difficult to look through a list of fics and see nothing but pairings, and still detach yourself from the bomb so you don't wonder if there's anything else out there. Even so, an author would still have to convince me that the pairing is plausible.
It's just that ... there needs to be a line. I mean, if you're in a paddock there's going to be a fence somewhere; whether or not you choose to stay in the paddock doesn't matter. Even if you climbed over the fence, the fence would still be a reference point for you to say 'I am no longer in the paddock'. But if there is no fence, then you just keep running and you don't know how far you are from your starting point; it's easy to get lost.
I need to have a fence, or else I'll just end up not knowing what I think. I've never been fond of romance to begin with, but I will admit that my default assumption is heterosexual, simply because of the biological necessity/drive to procreate (the fics where most of the male cast are paired with each other always make me laugh; what are the odds that there would be that many gay people in a community, ready to be paired up like a line of iced cupcakes, or that they would all be people we 'know', and how would the community be continued if a man and woman never get together to have babies? Raffle orgy, yay~).
With regards to fanfic I do tend to take the view that gen is the best way to go, because at least then if a reader wants to see romance in the subtext they can, and if someone else wants to see nothing but friendship they can. So except on the rare occasions when I feel pushing the boundary is justified or has at least some kind of canon precedence, I've put my fences where canon ends. Maybe it's made me a little too intolerant; I don't know. But at least I know exactly where I am, I'm aware of the possibility of stepping outside that boundary, and any decisions to do so are conscious and considered.
And why do I get the feeling I've gone off-topic?
I've moved off of Naruto for the time being, but I'm always up for bookmarking fics in case I get back into the mood later! Also, thanks for being willing to discuss this with me; it's been more cathartic than submitting the secret or just ranting about the issue with like-minded friends. At the very least it's helped me work out why I take some of the views I do--though I do apologise for the rambling track I think I went off on!
Re: 150 OP
I agree and I think it's totally valid to say "This is a reason I see him as straight" as well. I think that's it more...I can see it as a PLUS in the straight category, but not a MINUS in the gay category if that makes sense? (I might be able to make a valid argument for Naruto if I tried, but Kakashi seems to be Porn-sexual X3)
I think, for me at least, it's that Naruto more then loves Sasuke...he's OBSESSED with him, and put his life on hold, pretty much, for Sasuke. I think the love can be just as strong between friend and lovers, I think the Obsession is....you don't generally get obsessed with friends that way.
I...draw the line at Asuma. I can't imagine what anyone can see as gay in him. He exudes heterosexuality to me (bear jokes aside). I could see wanting to explore Minato more, because his story is still so vague and sketchy, and I think a good author could...walk your paddock fence, but...sans a "In the field, it's not gay is we talk about
ESPNbeing bad ass ninja while we do it and never speak again about it...." and even THAT....no on Asuma. Like...wut. But you know...there's always people like Cole Porter who was married and from everything known loved his wife...but I agree anyone exploring that should realize they are pushing past canon (And if they deny the wives, or the love there, just outright ignoring it.)I understand just not going there. Trust me. I have TWO people I will read recommended fics from because I am SO picky. I don't even trust my girlfriend. (I also don't get a lot of fics, but me? I'd rather lose a lot of good, then be reading something awesome and suddenly get to the "OH GAWD WHAT THE HELL!" parts. Harry Potter fandom...*shudder*)
Secretly, Orochimaru gayed everyone in Konoha, and that is his secret plan to bring down the village. it'll just take a generation or two. :3 Seriously though, I really know that point. I have an unnaturally high level of gay people in my life and even MY life isn't like that (In fact one of the "canon" gays so to speak just paired off with a girl.) And I do agree that "Straight" is generally the default (maybe a bit less the default then some numbers buit...yeah, 90% of men aren't gay. It's not contagious XD)
Don't worry about being OT, and I can respect that...like...it's not what I enjoy but hey, different strokes...
No problem, I always welcome deep conversation (if you ever wanna hit me up on PM, feel free)