[ SECRET POST #792 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #792 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Star Wars]


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[Charlie Bartlett, Mean Girls]


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 18 pages, 450 secrets from Secret Submission Post #114.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 3 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ], [ 1 - empty comment ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

117

[(Anonymous)]

117. IASFM. I have no problem with people slashing. Some people get off at the idea of two men together, and I could get behind that too. But I don't get how it can be feminist.

How does pushing well-written female characters to the background so you can fangirl over how two guys are totally hot for each other, regardless of canon, equal feminism? And yes, I am aware that not every show or fandom has well-written female characters, and I don't expect every feminist to be forced to like a het pairing, or even a femslash pairing, but it's the moral high ground that slashers walk on that pisses me off.

There are several well-written female characters out there to be explored. And yet, slashers I've seen ranting about how slash is feminist, say there aren't. So, are those slashers' standards for women just completely out of reach? Because if none of the women in the fandoms slash is popular are "strong" enough, then I think slashers need to re-evaluate what being a strong woman in a post-feminist world is.

Re: 117

[(Anonymous)]

this.

Re: 117

[case]

I don't think slash is feminist -- I agree with the OP on that. (Because slash doesn't have anything to do with women in the first place.)

But slash diminishing women? What?

Re: 117

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think it's so much that slash itself diminishes women, but how female characters are treated by the slash community, if that makes sense. It seems to be pretty predominant in the Supernatural fandom, where every female character that comes in is ridiculed and hated on by the slashers (be the Wincest crowd or the Dean/Castiel fans).

Or in House, where Cuddy, Stacy, Cameron or whoever female House chooses to direct his attention at any particular week get the vitriol from female slashers.

They don't just write a m/m relationship, they seem to detest any focus canon may put on any female character at any given time, and by doing so, they push women and women's issues to the background.

Re: 117

[case]

But that's not because of slash, that's because of crazy fangirls who can't accept that OMG THEIR GAY OTP MIGHT NOT BE CANONZ OH NOES~``!!!!!!111!

Slash isn't inherently diminishing of women, I mean -- it's the dumb people like that that are the problem.

Re: 117

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

But you know, that's the first thing a lot of people see when they look at the slash fandom, and sometimes, it's all you encounter. Granted, at least some of that is where you hang out (actually, it was almost all I saw of slash or anime/manga fans my first few years of fandom, but those are dark days that we have put behind us and pretend never happened) but it is there. To take hte cliched example, look at the Supernatural fandom. There are plenty of people who like Wincest or Dean/angel-guy-from-this-season-but-I-haven't-seen-any-of-this-season who get mad at the way women in the show are treated in both canon and fandom, but a casual glance at the fandom would never tell you that.

Re: 117

[case]

That still doesn't make it right to say that slash diminishes women, though. Like the point is it's not the SLASH, it's the dumb people --

That's like saying het diminishes women because het fans HATE GINNY!!1! HARRY BELONGS WITH HERMIONE!11!! and it just -- makes no sense to say something like that.

Re: 117

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

I think the secret had some valid points (though that's mostly my agreement with dumping canons that you think treat women badly enough for it to affect your enjoyment) but was poorly worded, and "diminishes" is the big case of choosing the wrong word.

Fiction can be misogynistic, but a fannish practice isn't inherently misogynistic, and I think failing to draw that line clearly-inherent misogyny vs how it's applied-was an error on their part.

Harry Potter fandom scares me even more than Avatar fandom. And I'm not even in it.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

(What's IASFM mean? I don't think I've seen that one before.)

I think that's what the secretmaker is trying to say not the either/or or "not feminist=misogyny" that other commenters seem to get out of it.

I don't think slash automatically ignores or insults female characters, but if the slash (explicit or not) is the focus, then, by default, it is prioritizing the male characters over the female ones.

I've always just automatically bounced off most canons where I disliked the female characters.

[(Anonymous)]

IASFM: I agree so fucking much.

I think that's what the secretmaker is trying to say not the either/or or "not feminist=misogyny" that other commenters seem to get out of it.

Yes, I don't think exploring the relationship between two men is necessarily misogynistic, but I think the attitude in the slash fandom itself can be at times. Also, I don't buy the whole "written for women by women" because in every fandom I've been, every pairing has largely been written for women by women, be it het, slash or femslash.

I don't think slash automatically ignores or insults female characters, but if the slash (explicit or not) is the focus, then, by default, it is prioritizing the male characters over the female ones.

Exactly. And it's not an absolute, because I'm sure there are slashers out there who still incorporate female characters in their discussions and stories, but the general attitude of slashers that I've come across in fandom always seems to be "all canon females suck."

I've always just automatically bounced off most canons where I disliked the female characters.

Same.

[veronica-rich.livejournal.com]

but the general attitude of slashers that I've come across in fandom always seems to be "all canon females suck."

That's interesting, because most of the ones I know write/read it because they like the two guys, not because they're trying to avoid the women. Possibly it depends on where you stand as to how you meet/interact with these people. If you're part of a group, you probably see more nuances than if you aren't.

Interesting how "slash" automatically means m/m in this thread. Nobody's mentioned femslash - which is not necessarily feministic in and of itself just because it's about women, either. It's sort of like assuming all m/m slash is necessarily pro-gay; I've seen some that really isn't.

[meganbmoore.livejournal.com]

Interesting how "slash" automatically means m/m in this thread. Nobody's mentioned femslash

It's possible that it's because the secret specifies m/m, but I suspect it's more because that's the bulk of slash that people see or discuss is m/m. But if just being and f/f was feminist, then it would be similar to a discussion I recently had about how being about women isn't automatically feminist. Otherwise, The Devil Wears Prada would be feminist, as would most romance novels.