fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #800 ]

[ SECRET POST #800 ]

⌈ Secret Post #800 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Supernatural]

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 16 pages, 383 secrets from Secret Submission Post #115.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 2 3 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

119. I do this with any picture. You aren't alone, OP!

129. I stopped reading two posts in; I've never thought of writing people that are not exactly like me as "the Other." It's ridiculous, and I don't want to know who coined that term and made racism/sexism/whathaveyou worse. :| I think what made it worse for me was that a lot of the people were actually talking about how to write and tackle "the Other," and it is just "LOL WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOU."

158. ikr. )8

Rules of writing:

* If you write PoC as just like people you know, you are whitewashing them.

* If you write PoC as people who have different experiences, you are othering them.

* If you write something with no PoC with it, you are excluding them.

* If you write something that upsets PoC in one of these ways, you are not allowed to ask how you could change it, because PoC are not your personal writer's workshop.

The only conclusion, basically, is never to write anything if you're white, because white people have written enough stuff and it's time the PoC got their turn.

If the goal is to avoid all criticism and negative reactions to anything you have written then yes, the best way--the only way--to get that is to never write anything at all.

but how is writing the above list going to invite criticism and negative reactions?

because PoC don't want whites to write PoC. period.

but if we don't write about them, then we are racist because we are 'ignoring them'.

I think you're totally exaggerating the kind of criticism you claim you're "inviting" here. Nobody has been torn apart by dogs. You keep claiming the PoC have special demands, but how is it in any way special for them to be able to read a book about someone like themselves as say how they thought about it? Iirc, readers have been pretty vehement about disliking the "One More Day" storyline in the Spiderman comics. Writers deal with it. Why would a writer expect that with this one issue readers need to be really nice about what they write?

Dear OP of 129,

Please read the comment this is a reply to, and then really really think about whether or not people have gotten the point.

Maybe they're just trolling? I mean, we can hope, right?

The rule is to do your research, try your best, and not be an asshole if people point out problems with your work later.

JESUS, INTERNET, IT IS NOT THAT COMPLICATED. D:

yes it is because people will not just jump on you if you get something wrong.

they will tear you to shreds.

it's not that complicated.

People will jump all over you for forgetting how many masts there are on a tall ship. People will jump all over you for pretty much anything!

The problem isn't criticism, which is pretty much inescapable. The problem is whether or not you make an ass out of yourself in response.

Oh, FUCKING cry moar.

Way to miss the point ENTIRELY. If you are a writer, it's your job to do the best you can do, and research the best you can. You may get criticized for it. No matter what. THAT'S JUST HOW IT IS IN ANY KIND OF WRITING, AND YOU DON'T GET TO BE BUTTHURT ABOUT IT.

AND YOU DON'T GET TO BE BUTTHURT ABOUT IT.

except PoC. they are ENTIRELY entitled to be butthurt about it and then rip you to pieces for even trying.

In what universe do you expect never to have your writing picked apart? If you really ARE trying (and not just whining), then that's all you can do. So just calm down.

Second comment in which you've missed the point; care to try for three?

because there's picking apart and there is someone scrutinizing your fic to find the least thing to whine about and then holding you up as a bad example.

I haven't missed the point, sweetheart. until you've had the hounds set after you for 'othering' or not 'getting it right' when you DID try and you DIDN'T stereotype and the PoC reader DID pick through and find one small thing that if the writing hadn't been about a PoC no one would have even noticed...

And then had that PoC reader and all their WHITE FRIENDS ream your ass over one thing...one thing that as mentioned, most readers wouldn't have even noticed...

...yeah...I think I have the right to be a little worked up over it.

so fuck you.

...yeah...I think I have the right to be a little worked up over it.

so fuck you.

Oooh. Touchy.

Kinda sucks when someone tries to tell you what you should or shouldn't feel upset about, doesn't it?

E Bear, is that you?

Um, I don't think anyone's going to come by and shut down your computer.

Gee, anything written is subjected to criticism; that's the nature of the beast. Nobody ever made everybody happy. All they can do is the best they can, try to be sensitive within the confines of the text itself, and be willing to take some hits once it's posted/published.

why are people missing the point?

it's not about writing something and being subjected to criticism.

it's about writing something and if you get it wrong (by whatever nebulous definitions the PoC reader considers wrong) not only are you criticized, you are held up for ridicule and people descend on you like ravenous dogs.

if you don't see that, you aren't paying attention to this hotly debated issue at all.

Okay one, you're not going to win any points here by comparing PoC to "ravenous dogs."

Second? If you were actually paying attention to this issue (which I've been following pretty much from day one, personally) you'd have noticed that the initial criticisms were very polite and calmly stated. Things didn't get "ravenous" until those who had been criticized began making asses of themselves, dismissing the opinions of their critics as misinformed and implying that they lacked the sophistication to properly read a text.

THAT was the point where people started to get angry.

Yeah, I got the point of the OP - I'm not stupid. But I'm pretty sure part of the point of the ongoing discussions everywhere, and the fact it keeps getting brought up, and at least some of the criticism, is to show what POC go through in their own lives on a regular or semi-regular basis. It may be the closest thing a non-POC will experience on constantly being judged and criticized even while trying to do the best they can, since a non-POC really can't know what being a POC is like.

Do I get tired of seeing the same unpleasant conversation come up over and over again? You bet. No matter what it is. Most of us dislike unpleasantness and continued confrontation in any form. I figure compared to some POC I've probably gotten off light in how I'm viewed in my everyday life, so when I want to grind my teeth at the continued discussion, I just think How would I feel if I didn't have the choice to scroll past or click away in real life? - like we all do online.

I'm hardly PC. But this isn't really a PC issue, it's more of a "well, hopefully someday nobody will be slighted based on anything other than their demonstrated individual behavior and ability." You know?

...well i definitely disagree with this

& it really depends on what you're writing. if you're writing about a character who is culturally different, then obviously you'll have to know something about their culture. if you're just writing about someone who's been brought up as english/american/whatever but has a different colour skin, then you don't need to know, well, anything.

tell that to the people who cry out that their meta is IMPORTANT BECAUSE IT'S DISCUSSING IMPORTANT THINGS!!!!!!

PoC DESERVE THEIR OWN SPECIAL GROUP AND THEIR OWN SPECIAL WAY OF BEING HANDLED IN FICTION, DON'T YOU GET IT????!?!??!??!?!

I think the original intention was "How not to write a blatent stereotype that makes you look stupid and everyone else feel bad," because.. that's hard for some people?

Because most people don't understand Stereotypes Are Bad, I guess.

if it were just that easy, then the racism debate flaming through fandom right now wouldn't be as big as it is.

the problem is now that the issue is so touchy that if anyone writes a PoC now, their fic will be subjected to scrutiny that no other fic is subjected to throughout fandom, just so someone can be satisfied that the fic treats PoC respectfully.

the downside is if one PoC finds something to object to (and it may not even be blatent stereotypes, just something off or wrong or if the PoC reader even whiffs of 'white entitlement'), hyenas rush to the kill site and start eating with a frenzy.

You might want to give

nojojojo's post here (http://nojojojo.livejournal.com/161692.html) a read.

So the great cultural appropriation debate returns, and one thing in particular has been bugging me. A lot of the people talking in all these comment threads -- clarification; a lot of the white people talking in these threads -- keep complaining that all this scary appropriation stuff means they're damned if they do and damned if they don't, they can never write people of color to the satisfaction of PoC so they're not going to bother, I guess this means white men should only write white men, o woe, o melodrama. [...] But a few of the people voicing this complaint are sincere, because for various reasons they haven't yet realized something very basic: that racism infects the thinking of everyone, in a racist society. Everyone, including PoC themselves. White people are the most frequent perpetrators of stereotyping and "inappropriate appropriation", largely due to history and the power structure of Western society. But it's never been solely a unidirectional thing, however it might seem to those poor, confuzzled, put-upon white men (and others who think like them). PoC can stereotype and inappropriately appropriate other PoC. Hell, PoC can stereotype and inappropriately appropriate themselves.

[...] I expect there will turn out to be more evidence of my own subconscious racism when the book comes out, and people read it with a critical eye. Probably some heterosexism, Christian-centrism, and classism too. This stuff gets in all of us. It's like a perpetual infection; we have to constantly watch for the symptoms and repeatedly innoculate ourselves against it, lest it flare up and devour our souls.

Which is why I hope people call me on it, when they spot these issues. Seriously. It'll hurt. I'll feel even more like shit. But y'know what? If it helps me innoculate myself more efficiently, maybe reduce my viral load a little for the future? Then it's worth the pain.

So. For those of you who've been feeling so put-upon, like you don't dare attempt this seemingly-herculean task or like you're doomed to failure if it you try... I don't want to hear it. Quit crying, roll up your sleeve, and take your injection of clue like a big gender-of-your-choice. I don't ask anyone to do anything I'm not willing to do myself, and I think that's true of most of the people, PoC and otherwise, who've been asking you to think, just think, about this stuff. We may not whine talk about our own processes as much or as openly, but trust me, we have to think about it too. We know how hard it is. And we do it anyway. All we ask is that you do the same.

And like

ali_wildgoose already said, "The rule is to do your research, try your best, and not be an asshole if people point out problems with your work later."

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

[ SECRET POST #800 ]

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