[ SECRET POST #5539 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5539 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 45 secrets from Secret Submission Post #793.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[meadowphoenix]

Right I actually understand liking redemption arcs of all sorts, I just don't know what that has to do with mercy, generosity, and forgiveness which redemption arcs can be absolutely devoid of. I'd understand if this was about the arcs which have all those things, but OP legit said they doesn't discriminate.

OP

[(Anonymous)]

Where mercy and generosity come in is that I appreciate those things being applied to me very much, because I need them (whether I deserve them or not).

So I always try to keep them in mind as desirable ideals to extend to others, even when they're not necessarily feasible in the given practical situation. (Look at that mess going on in the Batman thread, lol, which I'm not in because I've never been all that into Batman)

Re: OP

[meadowphoenix]

Yes, that's where my confusion lies OP. Redemption arcs are by definition neither merciful nor generous. Being merciful and generous would be not requiring the redemption at all. Redemption is doing the exact thing (or more) that will get you accepted back in the communion you ruptured, including death. In traditional arcs, re-acceptance is not even a kindness, it's an obligation.

ETA: I'm not trying to step on your radical empathy OP, I'm just baffled, because it seems like you like something at cross-purposes with your philosophy, and you don't see it as cross-purpose.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not sure I agree with that completely. In asking for forgiveness at all, you already admit that you've done something wrong. The person you wronged has the power to either forgive or refuse.

Redemption isn't exactly the same thing as 1=1 reparation (or even more). Depending on the magnitude of the offense, the arc might end in death, possibly (the ultimate sacrifice, but sometimes a cheap way out for the writer, not the character). I don't even see redemption as requiring re-acceptance. Maybe the people originally wronged will never forgive and they don't have to, but I honestly prefer for the redeemed character to survive and find another path to eventual happiness, even if it's uphill both ways in the snow.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

SA

To clarify, I don't agree that mercy and generosity mean not requiring redemption at all. Mercy and generosity mean that it's not impossible, or nearly-impossibly difficult, or requiring death. You still have to change and work for it - but the standards are doable.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

+ 10000

I agree with this completely!

Re: OP

[meadowphoenix]

I'm not sure I agree with that completely.
Which part? I'm not entirely sure what your next sentence is in response to.

Redemption isn't exactly the same thing as 1=1 reparation (or even more)
I didn't say it was. I said it was the process (doing the thing) to get accepted back into the communion you ruptured.

But like the word literally means to pay (buy) back. That's its literal root. That's its theological/sociological implication from its inception. I'm not saying we can't move beyond the concept entirely, but I don't think there's a reason to pretend we are keeping the concept or even its spirit when we are moving beyond it.

I don't even see redemption as requiring re-acceptance.
Maybe you could give me an example of the type of redemption arc you mean. Even in non-traditional redemption, if re-acceptance by other characters doesn't happen, it's usually because the story is not treating the offense as an action, but as a philosophy or psychology of which the action is the result. So they are in fact in communion again at the end of the redemption, with ethics or the "correct" perspective. The Scarlet Letter is a pretty good example of what I mean. Dimmesdale is never out of communion with Hester or the town, even though he's wronged Hester and Prynne, he's out of communion with himself and God and so recommunion is with himself and God.

But changing your mind or even your perspective is not a whole redemption arc, the recommunion is key.