fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5582 ]

[ SECRET POST #5582 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5582 ⌋

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Notes:

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Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
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Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

I don't think that's an accurate representation of what JKR has actually said. Defending the exclusion of trans women from women-only spaces is not the only thing she's said on the topic. And I definitely think the people that she's allied herself with and actively promoted go far beyond that into actively denigrating trans women and trans identities, and are more or less openly transphobic. I think those are basically the reasons why people have responded to her as they have done. People aren't really inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt based on the people and movements she's placing herself with.

I'm not sure what any of that has to do with "refusing to bow to a culture of fear being used as a tool" - I don't know what culture of fear you have in mind, or who's using it as a tool. And I'm also curious - you said that you support trans people; what exactly does that mean in your head? And you said that people get accused of being TERFs too quickly - what do you think actually does make someone a TERF?

If JKR has said more about it, then that's passed me by. Not saying she hasn't, but more that I haven't had a lot of time to read celebrity news recently. Last time I checked in, that was the bulk of what she was saying. I take your point about the allies she's made, but then again it went past 'giving her the benefit of the doubt' to 'dehumanising and villifying her' a very long time ago. In fact it was pretty much instantaneous.

TERF gets used at the drop of a hat, including about the issues I have mentioned above. Does it matter what I think a TERF is? It's not somebody pointing out that sex based discrimination is a very serious and real issue fir billions of women, that's for damn sure.

Supporting trans people. Well, I speak out if I hear someone being a transphobic dick. I believe gender is fluid. I support my friends who are trans, emotionally and any other way I can. I have taught my kid from a young age that gender is not binary, and some people are born with a biology that does not align with their gender.

Culture of fear - obviously not unique to any one group, but it's the same toolkit, isn't it? Death threats, rape threats, personal insults (mostly about her writing, which even if not great still managed to convey one of the most popular stories of our time). I don't like to see it used by right wing groups, and I sure as hell don't like to see it used by a group who are the vocal minority of extremists for a cause I actually support.

I take your point about the allies she's made, but then again it went past 'giving her the benefit of the doubt' to 'dehumanising and villifying her' a very long time ago. In fact it was pretty much instantaneous.

OK so what I'm getting from this is that the problem is the language used in making the critique, more so than the critique itself? so then in other words what you meant when you said that people were "blowing it out of proportion" was that the language was out of proportion? more so than that people were wrong to have a problem with her actions, or criticize her actions, or morally condemn her? Is that a fair summary?

TERF gets used at the drop of a hat, including about the issues I have mentioned above. Does it matter what I think a TERF is?

Well, I guess the point is - I don't know if it gets used at the drop of a hat or not, but sometimes people do get called TERFs for actually being transphobic. It's not something that was invented for no reason and pulled out of thin air. There actually are people who are self-described feminists who are also very deeply transphobic, and a lot of those people are the people who are Rowling's allies.

Yes that's pretty much what I mean.

Oh I know it gets used in a valid way too, but I've seen it used off-label way more. It's become a tool by some to shut down any woman disagreeing with them, and again it smacks of misogyny.

SA For a textbook example of what I mean see the comment below yours lol. Couldn't make this shit up.

DA

They’re right though, you’re just willfully ignorant.

SA Just want to add, that I think a lot of what she's said has been mischaracterised as transphobia and it isn't. Not all, but most of it. There are valid points that get dismissed in this way - namely those that I've already mentioned above.

As for 'morally condemn her'. That I'm not quite sure about. Morally condemn. Hmm. Tricky one.

The rest of it though, of course people should discuss it and critique it. What I have an issue with is the vitriol, the dismissal of valid points raised, the culture of fear employed by some, and the complete vilification.

OK so you do actually think that people are wrong in their criticisms of JKR and not just using language that's too heated?

I think the thing is that the arguments you're talking about are things that have been discussed at length a million times; they really do get used as transphobic propaganda; and it's reasonable to conclude that JKR is using them as transphobic propaganda given who she's quoting, who she's promoting, who her friends and allies are, etc. If you want to have an argument about whether women's-only spaces should be allowed exclude trans women... I mean, one, people are going to strenuously disagree with you on the merits. It's an argument that's been had many, many times at great length and there are good reasons that people do not agree with you. If you want to talk about "single-sex spaces being vulnerable to predators", that's an argument that's been gone over many times, and people are really skeptical of it, because the reality is that human beings are capable of being predators regardless of their gender. So you have to say that trans women are statistically more likely to be predators than cis women, and there really isn't any evidence in favor of that. So it's just really hard to see the justification for arguments like that.

Two, even if you want to insist that it's theoretically possible to believe that women's-only spaces should be allowed to exclude trans women without being transphobic, the reality is that the vast majority of the people who make that argument are actually being transphobic in doing so. In many cases they are being blatantly and baldly transphobic. They're trading in stereotypes (calling trans women predators is a stereotype, calling them men in dresses is a stereotype, and so on), and they're supporting sweeping anti-trans legislation and policy changes and trying to make it harder for trans people to live in society. So that's basically the reason that people are reacting the way they do - because they think the argument isn't justified, and also because so many of the people who make the argument are transphobic, and because JKR is clearly allying herself with the people who are transphobic. I don't think it's unfair to characterize JKR's views as transphobic in all of that context.

The rest of it though, of course people should discuss it and critique it. What I have an issue with is the vitriol, the dismissal of valid points raised, the culture of fear employed by some, and the complete vilification.

I mean, I think social media in general encourages toxicity and vitriol on all sides. And trans people are also subject to aggressive harassment and toxicity and vitriol, both on social media and in real life.

+Trillions

- I don't know if it gets used at the drop of a hat or not
Then you're either wilfully blind or just really out of touch because yes, and in this very thread, all the time. And in general, it gets thrown about constantly, even by activists at each other if they don't 100% agree with each other.

Very much in this thread now! If it weren't so depressingly predictable I'd laugh.

You’re both so obtuse as to almost seem like parodies of typical transphobes who embody “I’m not transphobic, but..”.

+100000

-100000

- JKR has "valid" points based on facts!!
- "Erasing" single-sex spaces...
- What about sexual predators???

These are tired, TIRED transphobic talking points. You spout them, people will call you a TERF, as that is what TERFs do. Sure you can claim to support trans people in your private life and be really, really woke on the inside, but nobody who interacts with you online can verify that. We can see what you've typed though.

No, they're not. Dismissing real issues is only going to alienate people who would otherwise be on your side. Luckily, not everyone is like you and doesn't immediately start screaming transphobia like a banshee whenever these topics come up.

Mumsnet, go back, bye.

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[ SECRET POST #5582 ]

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