fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #818 ]

⌈ Secret Post #818 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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[Homefront]

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[Code Geass]

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(Family Guy/Seth Macfarlane)

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(Princess Resurrection)

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 077 secrets from Secret Submission Post #117.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 3 4 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ], [ 1 - doing it wrong ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Flat | Top-Level Comments Only

...isn't that kind of like saying that women - and gay women in particular - have no grounds to object to lesbian porn, despite how degrading and unrealistic it is, and how much it contributes to a negative culture of objectification of homosexuality as being there purely to titilate straight people?

I'm not saying slash fanfic and lesbian porn is the same thing... some slash is perfectly respectful and realistic. But I think if there's a fic that is blatantly unrealistic, steriotyped and clearly just there as fap material for fangirls, a gay man - or anyone, really - is perfectly within their rights to object to that. I don't see how women objectifying gay men and appropriating their sexuality as a tool for their fantasies - putting no further thought into the subject matter than OMG HAWT - is any better than men doing the same to gay women.

Edited 2009-04-02 23:10 (UTC)

Object all you want. But they make lesbian porn the way they do because men think it's hot. If you want lesbian porn that appeals to lesbians, find a lesbian to direct it. It's no different than how harlequin romance novels are directed mostly towards women because that's their target audience, and James Bond romance, as the only (poor) example I can think of, are directed mostly towards men. It's a different audience, it's a different feel. Learn about economics and advertising.

tl;dr - When something is made, the creator has an audience in mind, often (but not always) similar to themselves. It skews the views and realism because that's what the MASSES want.

So what you're saying is that it's okay that harmful steriotypes exist in certain forms of media because a certain section of society is too ignorant to see how harmful they are and thus enjoy them?

I know WHY lesbian porn exists - where did I impy that I didn't? What I'm saying is that the OP seems to be suggesting that people shouldn't voice objections to slash if they find it offensive, because other people enjoy it. Which seems kind of nonsensicle. It's like saying we shouldn't object to lynching black people because some white people enjoy it.

Yes, because enjoying our fantasies is exactly the same as lynching the black man. I don't think that's what the OP is saying at all. I think what the OP is saying is basically "crai moar." I mean, yes. Any slash fan beyond the teenage range knows the difference between their fantasies and reality.

And if it's the fan media that offends you, you're taking it far too seriously. Most of the time, people who have exaggerated faulty views on homosexuality and the interactions of same-sex couples and individuals are either homophobic, closeted, or otherwise sheltered. Yes, you have a right to complain. Yes, you have a right to be offended. Yes, you have a right to try to change peoples' views. But you can't change their fantasies. And that's essentially what porn and fanfiction and fanart and the like are - elaborate fantasies, often ones that people want to share with others.

So if you're offended, I get it. But at the same time, with all possible respect, get over yourself. Every demographic out there has been objectified, at one time or another. Gays may be one of the prominent examples, right now, but they're no different than anyone else that's been discriminated against.

Honest question... do you think the popularity of slash fiction exploits real gay men? Does it create a behavior in women that's detrimental to gay men in real life?

I only have my own experience to go on, but most of the slash writers I know are not only respectful of the gay men in their daily lives, they actively fight for glbt rights. Same with femmeslash. Reality is firmly separated from fiction. That may not always be the case of course, but I've never seen negative effects outside internet discussions like these.

With video/picture pornography, the argument I've always heard is that it objectifies real women in a way that effects relationships in life, the ideas men and women have about what sex is and should be, creates disrespect for women, etc, etc... I'm not sure the consequences for slash are that extensive.

If gay men had a problem with it, I wouldn't blame them, but I've never met one who has. And as someone who dates both men and women, fiction has never personally offended me as long as the respect is there outside the pages. Anything made for the sake of titillation is going to reduce someone to a body or a romantic figure. Straight, gay, or otherwise. The only thing we can do is educate. Censorship rarely changes anything.

As I said, I don't think that slash is the same as lesbian pornography - chiefly because of what you're saying; and also, as I said, some slash is perfectly respectful.

I'm a gay woman in fandom - I know this world as well as you do. And I'm certainly not advocating censorship (where did I say that?)

The issue I take with the OP is the opinion they seem to have that people just shouldn't object to slash, ever, even if they DO find it offensive, because some other people enjoy slash. Which seems nonsensicle. If you see something you find offensive in slash fiction it's WORTH bringing that up with the author and questioning them on it, for the purposes of education - to make sure this isn't an opinion they hold to in real life; to make sure other people reading the piece realise that it's not realistic (or even potentially offensive).

Ah, I didn't mean to imply you had advocated censorship. Sorry. It's just that many arguments I read seem to think all slash should disappear. That's clearly not the case here.

I completely agree with you. Discussion, questioning authors, and rightful objections should be a part of the community. Otherwise it really could get out of hand. :)

to make sure this isn't an opinion they hold to in real life

so you're fandom's moral police now? do you HONESTLY believe that in everything you read the author is telling you how they feel about something? do you HONESTLY believe that people can't write something they think is hot and not actually buy into the morality or ethics of it?

dude, you need to step back if you do because someone needs a reality check and it's not most of us...

The only thing we can do is educate. Censorship rarely changes anything.

But surely most of the time people raise objections to tropes in fanfic for the purpose of education, NOT censorship. Every ongoing discussion I've ever seen across fandom on gender, race, sexuality etc started by people who find a thing offensive has always been about promulgating ideas and thereby educating people. The odd person may call for the removal or deletion of something, but that's never the main thrust of the argument.

True. I'm sorry I even brought censorship into the discussion. Lapse of judgment there.

[ SECRET POST #818 ]

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