Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2009-04-17 05:36 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2009-04-17 05:36 pm
[ SECRET POST #833 ]
⌈ Secret Post #833 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
101.
[John C. Reilly and Will Ferrell]
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102.
[Cirque de Soleil: Kooza]
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103.
[Sidney Crosby]
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104.
[Watchmen]
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105.
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106.
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107.
[M*A*S*H]
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108.
[timothy geithner]
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109.
[Rifftrax - iRiffs - Ice on Mars]
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110.
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111.
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112.
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113.
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114.
[Bleach]
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115.
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116.
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117.
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118.
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119.
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120.
[Avatar]
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121.
[Harry Potter]
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122.
[Jackie Earle Haley]
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123.
[30 Rock]
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124.
[A Song of Ice and Fire]
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125.
[Albert]
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126.
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127.
[Supernatural]
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128.
[Watchmen]
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129.
[Family Guy]
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130.
[Fringe]
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131.
[Boys Before Flowers]
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132.
[American Idol]
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133.
[Law & Order: UK, and Doctor Who]
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134.
(Prison Break, Psych)
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135.
[Life]
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136.
[Phil & Lem, Better Off Ted]
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137.
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138.
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139.
[Hamtaro]
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140.
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141.
[Gamers II]
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142.
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143.
[Kings]
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144.
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145.
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146.
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147.
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148.
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149.
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150.
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151.
[Urinetown: The Musical]
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152.
[Ugly Betty]
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153.
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154.
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155.
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156.
[Joel Hodgson from MST3K]
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157.
[Guys & Dolls Revival]
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158.
[Stormhawks]
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159.
[Nightwish]
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160.
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161.
[Gilmore Girls]
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162.
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163.
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164.
[Raquel Reed]
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165.
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166.
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167.
[FF7]
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168.
[Verbotene Liebe]
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169.
[Wicked]
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170.
[Stargate Atlantis]
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171.
[Megan Hilty/Kayla Collins/Girls Next Door]
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172.
[Artemis Fowl]
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173.
[Ghost Hunters, Torchwood]
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174.
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175.
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176.
[The World Ends With You]
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177.
[The Real Ghostbusters]
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178.
[Being Erica]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #119.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
"I judge you" is such a silly phrase anyway
But to take an interest in the film, positive or negative, and then flatly refuse to ever read the book? That's different, and that's just stupid.
For me, if a movie adaptation manages to hold my attention, I will always make an effort to learn about its source material. So, bad assumption on your part, secret author.
no subject
That's different, and that's just stupid.
Not really. I suspect that most people who aren't reading the book aren't "flat-out refusing to ever read it," anyway--I'd say most of them haven't gotten around to it (and may not), or just aren't interested in a different presentation of the same material. And why, exactly, is that a problem for you? People approach fandom in different ways, and all too often not reading the comic is seen as evidence of lesser intelligence.
I'm sure there are people outright refusing to read the book for stupid reasons. I haven't seen any of them.
no subject
I don't know why the fandom thinks that those of us who loved the movie but aren't sure they care all that much about the comic are OMG LESS INTELLIGENT. Such stigma.
no subject
If they aren't "flat-out refusing to read it" then our discussion doesn't even concern them does it? I did specifically refer to the people refusing, and not to the people who haven't got around to it or aren't interested.
It's not a problem for me, it's a problem for them if they want their opinion to be taken seriously. Me, I am only responding to an assertion that someone publicly made.
no subject
No, people do not need required reading in order to judge a movie. If they don't like the movie and say so, that's okay. If they judge the book after only seeing the movie, that's stupid. But an adaptation needs to stand on its own terms. If something in the movie was hard to understand if you haven't read the book (I wouldn't know), then that's the fault of the movie. It absolutely isn't the fault of the moviegoers, because the movie needs to stand on its own merits.
If they aren't "flat-out refusing to read it" then our discussion doesn't even concern them does it?
Except I have never actually see people actively refusing to ever read it--all I see are people being denigrated for judging the movie on its own terms because they haven't read the book.
no subject
I hear this said a lot, and I still feel it's not a basic truth but rather the constant defense of lazy critics. Yes, the movie needs to have a hook for the masses, to at least appeal to them as something cool and engaging. But a hook should suffice. When the source material's so huge, and your aim is to make a faithful adaptation, you'd only end up making something insultingly simplistic and boring if you explained everything on screen. The movie's better and more ambitious when it assumes that the viewers are, if not familiar with the source material, then at least perceptive enough to follow along despite their unfamiliarity, and inform themselves later.
I've not actually seen anyone get harassed for not having read the book, but if people do judge out of ignorance, I can see why they might be.
no subject
The movie's better and more ambitious when it assumes that the viewers are, if not familiar with the source material, then at least perceptive enough to follow along despite their unfamiliarity, and inform themselves later.
More ambitious, sure, but a worse movie. I'd say the supplementary Watchmen DVD is more what you're describing--it works to complement both the comic and the movie, and probably doesn't work too well on its own, but that's fine for what it is.
I've not actually seen anyone get harassed for not having read the book, but if people do judge out of ignorance, I can see why they might be.
I've seen this in the comments of pretty much ever anti-Watchmen secret. And don't get me wrong, some of the criticisms are pretty moronic, but it's unfair to judge people for having an opinion on a supposedly stand-alone movie.
no subject
Contradiction in terms IMO. Why would it catch anyone's interest if it wasn't, if not enjoyable, then at least compelling? It ought to be enjoyable for non-fans, and more enjoyable for fans. Replace "enjoyable" with "compelling" as necessary.
The last adaptation I saw, where I was totally unfamiliar with the canon, was incredibly enjoyable even when I didn't quite understand what was going on. I went and read the book and loved it. The not knowing was intriguing, just as I think the hints of backstory and an alternate history in the Watchmen movie are intriguing.
Not understanding a movie is almost always extremely poor grounds for not liking it, unless you are specifically arguing that the story was poorly told. And it's often the case that people will try to argue that a story's been poorly told because they didn't have a clue what was going on half the time, until they read the story and find that it was adapted quite well.
no subject
Sorry, poorly worded on my part--I was trying to say that if it's only comprehensible/complete if you've read the book, then it's not a good movie. It could still be enjoyable, but that's still bad storytelling and bad moviemaking.
Not understanding a movie is almost always extremely poor grounds for not liking it, unless you are specifically arguing that the story was poorly told.
That's what I meant; if the only people who understand the movie are the ones who read the book, the movie has a problem.
And it's often the case that people will try to argue that a story's been poorly told because they didn't have a clue what was going on half the time, until they read the story and find that it was adapted quite well.
And isn't this a contradiction in terms? It's simply not a good adaptation if you can only understand what's going on if you've read the book, because adaptations are meant to stand on their own. If people tend not to understand it because it's complicated and needs a couple viewings or something, fine. If people tend not to understand it because they haven't read the supplementary material, then the movie is poorly done. (And I'll note that I'm arguing in the abstract here, as I've been a fan of the comic and really enjoyed the movie.)
no subject
I think we're only arguing an issue of degrees here. If the movie makes absolutely no sense whatsoever to the point where its scenes aren't even strung together in a slightly coherent way, sure, that's bad. But if you can follow the basic plot and fill in the blanks later, that's enough.
If there are points in the movie where you know you're seeing something important but you don't have quite enough info to parse it right away, all I'm saying is you should suck it up and get that info later, if you care enough to say you did or didn't like it.
I don't think it's a contradiction in terms because a movie may have been adapted well considering the limitations of the movie format, and still somewhat opaque to newcomers. A haiku obviously has to be more dense than an epic poem; it's not a bad haiku if it relies heavily on allusion.
no subject
If there are points in the movie where you know you're seeing something important but you don't have quite enough info to parse it right away, all I'm saying is you should suck it up and get that info later, if you care enough to say you did or didn't like it.
is really a matter of opinion. I think that it's cool if you want to do that, but that it shouldn't be required; my issue is with declaring others' opinions invalid because they didn't do this. "The movie doesn't work if you don't read the book" is a perfectly valid criticism; whether it matters to you is up to you. I would've seen Watchmen even if it was incomprehensible to anyone who didn't read the book, because of how it enhances my enjoyment of the source material, but tons of people wouldn't have liked it in that case, and I wouldn't blame them.
In short, my problem comes down to expecting everyone to do what you do; hell, I love reading the source material of an adaptation that interests me. But it isn't a requirement, and to treat it as such makes people less likely to see the movie and possibly get interested in the source material.
it's not a bad haiku if it relies heavily on allusion
A haiku also isn't meant to tell a complete story, while a movie is.