fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #5712 ]

[ SECRET POST #5712 ]

⌈ Secret Post #5712 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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10. [SPOILERS for Sandman]

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11. [SPOILERS for Stranger Things 4]

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12. [WARNING for discussion of eating disorders]

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13. [WARNING for discussion of eating disorders]

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14. [WARNING for discussion of sexual assault]

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15. [WARNING for unspecified kinks]

Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #817 .
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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What I'm getting from these comments is there's apparently no room for a discussion between "sex work is 100% great and fine for anyone" and "objectification of the female body is connected to a lot of awful things"

Like...yes, fully informed informed sex work with protections for the workers themselves is fantastic, and good for all those involved. However I personally do think we should question where the pressure for commodification is coming from, and be more honest about the risks involved. It's not all sunshine and rainbows, even if morally it should be.

as the first anon replying that said the issue is the commoditization of everything, yeah this is what i meant

Right, the thing to me is: economic necessity forcing people to do jobs they don't want to do is bad. However, it's also a fundamental basic part of our entire economic system and our entire society. It's treated as completely acceptable and normal. In the US, the entire economic system is based around it. Politicians and economists will openly talk about the need to increase economic coercion on people so they take jobs they don't want.

Obviously, that kind of economic coercion is bad. We should absolutely do as much as we can to limit people from being forced to work shitty jobs for substandard pay. But it's also something that's bad across the board. We shouldn't accept it as normal in all cases, and then treat it like a huge problem when it comes to sex work. Similarly, I think the gross cynicism and the hustle money-at-all-costs culture and the culture of social media influencer-dom that are pervasive in society are absolutely awful and harmful. However, again, none of those things are in any way exclusive to sex work or OnlyFans or anything like that.

This, yes, thank you.

+ 1000

fully informed informed sex work with protections for the workers themselves is fantastic, and good for all those involved. However I personally do think we should question where the pressure for commodification is coming from, and be more honest about the risks involved.

Almost nobody arguing for the legitimacy and destigmatization of sex work is saying there are no problematic aspects to the industry, or that there are no problematic aspects to how society treats women's sexuality. But the fact that we live in a world in which both misogyny and commodification are pervasive societal forces has no effect whatsoever on the fundamental legitimacy of sex work.

Sex work is work. Sex workers are workers. Stigmatizing sex work and sex workers is irrational, unjust, and socially damaging. We should stop doing it.

Also, sex work, as an industry, can be predatory, parasitic, and callous. That's bad and we should take steps to minimize these harmful aspects of the industry--just as we should take steps to minimize the predatory/parasitic/callous aspects of all industries. We should also take steps to help the people who are employed by an industry to be less vulnerable to possible abuse (as long as said "help" doesn't involve victim blaming or infringing on people's rights to self-governance).

We should also continue feminisms fight to make society less of a misogynistic shitshow.

All of these things are true and none of them are in conflict with each other. What's constructive is the recognition that all of these aims exist in harmony with each other; they are pulling in the same direction. What's damaging is many people's desire to treat these aims as things that are separate from, and in opposition to, each other.

AYRT I don't think we're actually disagreeing all that much. I never said that sex work isn't legitimate or is somehow morally wrong, and I don't think OP actually did either. All I am saying is that people entering this field, and especially young people who are particularly at risk, should be prepared for the world that exists--with the predation and possible abuse, as you mentioned, which in sex work is unfortunately an even bigger risk because of the illegitimacy, of course--while we work to create the world that we want, where it's not an issue.

I just think it's a bit disingenuous to encourage young people to enter a world that's STILL full of issues BEFORE we find reasonable and actually helpful ways to fix those problems. That has nothing to do with the morality of sex work itself.

Yes, this. There's something wrong when teenage girls think that sex work is the only way for them to have any sort of value.

AYRT and to be clear: the thing that is wrong is not sex work itself--it's the system telling teenage girls that it's fun and easy, and not a high-labor job (physically, emotionally, financially, etc)

Have you considered the fact that doing sex work does not actually indicate anything about how one perceives one's value, practically, interpersonally, morally or otherwise?

I mean, I just think there's something wrong when teenage girls think caring for others by becoming healthcare professionals is the only way for them to have any sort of value. Don't even get me started on teenage boys and the blatant self-worth issues that clearly drive their desire to be professional athletes. *shakes head*

(Actually, I think comparing sex work and pro athletics is kind of apt. Not a perfect one-to-one, but a decent point of comparison. The desire to make a good income in an economy where it seems to be becoming increasingly difficult and expensive to do so via traditional means, is one of the primary attractions in both cases, and in both cases, the desire for the empowerment of financial prosperity is likely to be particularly alluring to people who come from unprivileged backgrounds--people who, through zero fault of their own, have little hope of achieving financial prosperity via a more traditional route. And yeah, the fact that there are kids out there working themselves to exhaustion and in some cases sustaining injuries that will come back to haunt them when they're older because they need that sports scholarship if they want to make it out...is fucking tragic and infuriating. But we don't act like they should be denied the right to pursue this goal or make patronizing assumptions like oh clearly they've been brainwashed by society and can't be trusted with their own lives and bodies.)

(Also, some people just realize early on that they enjoy playing with balls. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ )

Have you considered the fact that doing sex work does not actually indicate anything about how one perceives one's value, practically, interpersonally, morally or otherwise?

This. There's this weird assumption that sex workers all have bad self-esteem or else they wouldn't do it, which is just not true at all. Or that they think it's the only option. The only way this perception can be as pervasive as it is despite years of sex-worker activists and commentators saying the opposite, is that there are some people who just cannot let go of thinking of it as so inherently degrading that no mentally healthy person would ever do it willingly.

This isn't a rational position. It's based in superstition about sex workers being "ruined" in some unique way.

Maybe it's the fact that the industry is historically extremely harmful?

Like, yes, there are lots of people who choose it and love it. And yes, decriminalization and destigmazation is HUGELY important. But you really can't imagine where the perception of victimization and degradation could be coming from?

I understand where it's coming from, of course - you have to consider the amount of historical sex-negativity and particular stigmatization of women who have sex out of wedlock (for any reason). The Madonna/Whore complex. Abstinence-only "education" that compares women who have had sex to used chewing gum. The idea that a woman who sleeps around is degraded and shameful, but for a man to do that is normal. The idea that consensual casual sex is bad somehow.

Yes, in addition to that, the porn industry and sex work has often been very harmful to the individuals working in them. If it weren't for those myths I listed, it would be much easier for sex workers in harmful or abusive situations to get real help. Instead they're treated as brainwashed victims who had/have no agency or barely-redeemable "fallen women," neither of which is really helpful. In a crime situation, police have historically never helped - if they don't rape the women again themselves - and the reason for this is that women who have sex for money are viewed as barely human. The reason for this is patriarchal sex-negativity and slut-shaming and a piss-poor concept of what consent really means (hint: it often includes the right to say YES).

SA

To add: In order to really help sex workers who are in dangerous abusive situations, you have to be able to tell the difference between sex work that is that, and sex work that isn't. A stereotype that all sex work is damaging is completely useless and counterproductive to that purpose.

Do they really think "it's the only way to have any sort of value"? Or do they just think it's a job that's easier and pays better than fast food? (which isn't necessarily wrong)

I remember being like nineteen and hearing some male acquaintance of mine quote a comedian (not 100% sure which one) who apparently had a joke that was along the lines of, "You know you've failed as a father when your little girl is on the pole."

And even at the time (I was not fully feminist yet), I remember thinking how fucking stupid that was (to say nothing of how sexist it was, but yeah, that too). Like, "Oh noes I put 100K in the bank last year and I'm looking at making a down-payment on some choice property and also I'm physically stronger than I've ever been in my life, but I let "too many" of the "wrong" people see me with my clothes off, whatever will become of me??? If only I'd stayed at McDonalds flipping burgers, I could still be broke, depressed, and valuable as marriageable chattel by the standards of a bunch of douchebags! If only I had known what I was giving up!

DA

Well said. And of course the "joke" is all about the father and how he feels.

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[ SECRET POST #5712 ]

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