[ SECRET POST #5923 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #5923 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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[Buck from 9-1-1]



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04.
[City of Light]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 56 secrets from Secret Submission Post #848.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[fscom]

08. https://i.imgur.com/UueXeeO.png

Transcript

[(Anonymous)]

If I ship a pairing, I will always want them to, 1) fall in love, and 2) be okay.

I know for a lot of people the toxicity of a messed up ship is the entire appeal, and I respect that. I just can't relate. I'm emotionally incapable of not rooting for characters I ship, even when they're horrible.

Me: Oh they're analogous with Nazis? They commit profound human rights violations? They show no sign of feeling remorseful? Okay, but why are they like that? What is the wound at the core of them? Why are their coping mechanisms so maladaptive? And could their feelings for each other be the thing that snowballs into an avalanche of character growth for both of them?

Me, after pretending to think it over like a reasonable person: Yes, that could happen, I have decided.

Re: Transcript

[tabaqui]

Heeeeee.

I like this, too, OP: I really hate sad or ambiguous endings where the people (particularly the hurt, sad, fucked up people) don't get something that is a happy ending for them.

[philstar22]

Usually when I ship villains I don't want them to change who they are, but I do want them to be in love and loving with the person I ship them with. As long as it feels believable and in-character.

[(Anonymous)]

Genuine question, very much not judging: How do you accommodate "wanting to see them in love and loving" while not being able to root for them in the broader sense? That's the part that's the mindfuck for me. I can't root for my ship as a pairing but root against them as people. I just don't think it's how my brain works.

[philstar22]

Because most villains are complex characters who are capable of both awful things and good things. Often the ones I ship together have interesting chemistry in canon and may even love each other in canon. It doesn't mean I want them to win, but I like reading about their relationships with each other.

And for me I can like a character without rooting for them. I love villains. I love complicated villains. It doesn't mean I think they are good people, it just means I think they are interesting characters. Personally I don't have to root for them winning in order to enjoy watching/reading about them.

[(Anonymous)]

And for me I can like a character without rooting for them

Okay, for me there is a massive distinction between characters I like and characters I ship. I like plenty of characters I don't root for. No problem!

But I absolutely cannot ship a pairing without rooting for them. It would be almost like trying to root against myself. Which is funny because I have zero interest in self-insert fantasies--in fact they're basically anathema to me. Nonetheless, I can't root against my ships. It would be like saying "I'm fine with dying sad and alone," and meaning it.

[feotakahari]

I watched this one anime where a child molester becomes obsessed with the child who escaped him, and attempts suicide when he realizes his would-be victim will never consider him important or give much thought to him. “Ship” might be a stretch, but I find their dynamic fascinating.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

This sounds somewhat similar to a "creepypasta" I remember listening to, Kid is stalked by a guy obsessed with them. Felt the same, Not a ship but it's interesting in a morbid way. The name was Penpal I think.

[(Anonymous)]

DA.

Same here, big villain fan, some of the ones I like are even sympathetic or have understandable motives and reasons for being bad, but that doesn't mean I think they're good people or that I want them to win. I just like watching them being terrible on my screen because fake-evil is enjoyable to engage with in the safety of fiction.

[(Anonymous)]

Yes, all of this. I ship two villains who are both awful people. They also both truly, genuinely care about each other. I didn't want them to win, but I loved how important their relationship was to who they were as people and how it influenced their actions.

I liked that they were horrible people to the very end, but that their very last words were directed to each other.

[(Anonymous)]

Oooh, what's the fandom? I am intrigued.

[(Anonymous)]

So, here's an example for me. In BtVS, I loved Spike and Dru together. I thought they really worked, had great chemistry, etc. Did not want them to eat all the good guys. I would have continued to root for them, and if Dru had remained on the show I'd have been totally cool with a "will they or won't they"/"on again/off again" side-plot with the two of them. Frankly, I think it would have been more interesting and less annoying than the Spike/Buffy stuff. Still wouldn't have been rooting for any good guy eating.

Here's another example. I'm a fan of Poison Ivy/Harley Quinn. I think they deserve each other in all the right ways. I don't support Ivy's frequent goals of destroying or enslaving all the mammals and letting plants rule the world. Doesn't mean she and Harley shouldn't get their cuddles in before some Bat sends them back to Arkham.

[(Anonymous)]

I respect it, and I guess I get it on a technical level; I just don't relate at all on an emotional/psychological level.

With that said, the fact that I can't relate is undoubtedly why I don't tend to latch onto these kinds of pairings in the first place. But then the occasional exception comes along and it's a bit like having one line of a song stuck in your head for months; just this irresolvable thing, this infectious non-starter.

[(Anonymous)]

I get that too. For me personally though, if I like a character then I'm rooting for ships that I think are good for them, and their overall place in the story at large doesn't really factor into it.

[(Anonymous)]

That's why I rarely end with extremely toxic ships. I want characters to survive the odds and be happy. But I also hate then it's OOC. So I am not reading about some cutesy copies

OP

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I'm usually the same. I very rarely latch onto ships where the characters are horrible people, specifically because my brain ends up feeling like it's trying to solve an unsolvable puzzle.

Unfortunately, I've recently gotten into one such ship. It's actually the first ship I've had where the characters are realistically horrible (like, not cartoonish megalomaniacs, but characters who feel like actual people). And it's fucking me up, because I just want them to be happy together, but also oh my god NO they are the worst and at least one of them should rightfully be convicted of war crimes.

Also, the small fandom that exists for this pairing is like, "Lol, do the antis get that we want them to crash and burn together? FFS I'm not actually rooting for them, I want to see them destroy each other." And I'm just standing in the corner laughing nervously, like, "Ha. Yeah, uh. T-totally."

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

AYRT
OMG this is painful!
That's why I sort of can relate to antis because they probably just can't grasp the concept of wanting to see the train wreck. I am just not going to be aggressive about it.

Re: OP

[(Anonymous)]

That's why I sort of can relate to antis because they probably just can't grasp the concept of wanting to see the train wreck.

Heh, yeah, for sure. That's actually why I low key used to kind of be one, a little. Like, I didn't harass anyone, but I definitely said some dumb anti shit in my own LJ a few times, back in the day, and yeah, it was 100% because I couldn't fathom wanting to see the train wreck, or any sort of willful violation for that matter.

It took me a while to realize that a lot of people have a very heightened capacity for emotional dissonance where fiction is concerned--waaay higher than mine.

[(Anonymous)]

Yep. This is fair and reasonable fandom thinking, imo. And I am old.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not into fucked up ships very often because I mostly like happy and good-for-one-another couples where they make each other better or inspire each other to be better, but when I am into fucked up ships I'm someone who is into it because of the mess, I don't want them making each other better I want them ruining one another for good. Taking that away or watering it down gets rid of all the appeal for me because I might as well be reading fic for one of my happy ships.

You do you OP I'm not judging, it's just not something I vibe with when I do delve into fucked up ships/characters.

[feotakahari]

Even if the end point is the same, the process of getting out of the hole can be interesting. E.g. this character ruined their life because they expected to die soon anyway. Now that they’re going to live a while longer, what happens to all the relationships they damaged?

[(Anonymous)]

Taking that away or watering it down gets rid of all the appeal for me because I might as well be reading fic for one of my happy ships.

OP - Hmm, that's interesting! Personally, I don't actually see it this way at all. Like Feo said above, even if the end point is similar, how they get there can be VERY different. Personally, the journey is what it's all about for me either way, and the journey a pair of good-guy characters who already care about each other must take to get to a place where they're okay and committed to being in love is wildly different from the journey a pair of pathological bad apples who don't know how to love will need in order to get to a remotely similar place.

when I am into fucked up ships I'm someone who is into it because of the mess, I don't want them making each other better I want them ruining one another for good.

This is also really interesting to me, because I would say that, with my more ~problematic~ ships, I'm also into them because of the mess; it's just that what I love is the prospect of what a huge, complicated, painful, hair-raising, poignant, insane journey it's going to be for them to finally be genuinely okay within themselves, and also okay with loving each other. I see all that mess and I'm like, "Oh my god, imagine all the absolutely DERANGED shit that's going to happen on the way to a better, happier them! It. is. gonna. be. sick." XD

[(Anonymous)]

People don't become Nazis because they're woobies who need to heal. People become nazis because they find a scapegoat for their frustration and anger and hate. Humans like to find scapegoats. It's much easier for our monkey brains to deal with than real complex societal issues.

The reason it's different and much less forgivable is that we're all exposed to the societal pressures they're responding to. Most of us don't respond by deciding to support genocidal ideology.

Tldr: fuck nazis.

[(Anonymous)]

Wow, thank god I had you to 'splain these extremely complex ideas to me!

Also, frankly, anger and hate don't come out of nowhere; they're very much related to psychological and emotional damage. IRL the 'why' doesn't tend to matter all that much--not when someone's actions and beliefs seek to inflict/perpetuate harm on others. But it's incredibly simplistic and narrow-minded to argue that the factors that have shaped hateful people into being the way they are aren't complex, or that hate doesn't usually have roots in areas where an individual has sustained some kind of damage--whether dramatic or mundane. Personal damage doesn't mitigate the harm done by grown adults, but it's still part of the picture. And one of the many benefits of fiction is that it allows us to engage with complex concepts like this and explore them harmlessly, in ways that we can't IRL.