[ SECRET POST #6170 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6170 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


01.



__________________________________________________



02.
[Genshin Impact]



__________________________________________________



03.



__________________________________________________



04.
[FFXIV]



__________________________________________________



05.



__________________________________________________



06.




























Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 24 secrets from Secret Submission Post #882.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Sexism is having different metrics for what makes a male or female character "good," such that few, if any, female characters ever clear the bar. And that sexism is typically not self-aware; it's people telling themselves that the reason they hate all female characters is because every single last one of them is written terribly.

This is exactly it. Sexism is when when people decry a female character for being terrible and badly written, yet when a male character displays the exact same traits, somehow they're interesting and nuanced.

[(Anonymous)]

It's rarely a 1-1 translation though. A female character almost always has to be feminine, whatever that means to the writer. And a lot of the times it's complete BS that makes for a bad character. Like when animators put tits on a duck.

[(Anonymous)]

Why do tits make a character bad?

DA

[(Anonymous)]

In this example, I imagine it's the tits being on a duck that's the problem rather than the tits themselves.

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

But the duck with tits can still be a good character.

[(Anonymous)]

When a male character is badly written, I can ignore him because a) 99 percent chance is there are good male characters in the same fandom to devote my time to and b) point A makes clear that he's just one bad character and not written badly because the writer doesn't know or care to learn how to write men well.

When a women is badly written, she's often the only major female character in the canon, and the others are either nonexistent or too minor to expect any characterization. She is also therefore The Woman, who stands for all women and the writer's ideas of womanhood all rest on her.

You cannot say misogyny exists in the world and simultaneously deny that this misogyny doesn't seep into our fiction. It's also ludicrous to imply that male writers are less misogynistic than female consumers and that the misogyny usually lies in female consumers criticizing female characters who are in fact wonderful products of misogyny-free writing.

[(Anonymous)]

"When a male character is badly written, I can ignore him"

But what's being brought up here is not badly written male characters being ignored; it's badly written male characters getting accolades.

"You cannot say misogyny exists in the world and simultaneously deny that this misogyny doesn't seep into our fiction."

Misogyny certainly does seep into fiction. But misogyny also colors the way we view and respond to fiction.

"It's also ludicrous to imply that male writers are less misogynistic than female consumers and that the misogyny usually lies in female consumers criticizing female characters who are in fact wonderful products of misogyny-free writing."

This isn't really what's being said. What's being said is that there is a kind of misogyny present in certain female-dominated spaces in fandom that causes male characters to be preferred over female characters, regardless of the quality of the writing. This does not mean that female consumers writ large are more misogynistic than misogynistic male writers. It does mean that, "many female characters are poorly written" is used by some as a way to justify dislike of female characters altogether.

DA

[(Anonymous)]

This isn't really what's being said. What's being said is that there is a kind of misogyny present in certain female-dominated spaces in fandom that causes male characters to be preferred over female characters, regardless of the quality of the writing.

Or... that we're saying that the quality of writing for female characters is almost always less than the quality of writing for male characters because of the aforementioned misogynistic society and misogynistic male writers. Just because a male character and a female character appear in the same media doesn't mean they're written to the same quality. But apparently to suggest such a thing is misogyny on my part.

It does mean that, "many female characters are poorly written" is used by some as a way to justify dislike of female characters altogether.

No, it means that "many female characters are poorly written". Full stop.

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

"Or... that we're saying that the quality of writing for female characters is almost always less than the quality of writing for male characters"

Except that simply isn't true unless all you're consuming is garbage-tier media, and in cases like that the male characters are almost always just as poorly written.

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

Nope. It happens in otherwise good media too. That's the insidious nature of misogyny, it can be found anywhere, not just in people and media that can be conveniently tossed aside as "oh, well it's complete garbage anyway."

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

But if misogyny is insidious, why would that only be so on the writing/production side, and not on the watching/reading/consumption side? Why is it beyond the pale that some people would dislike female characters due to misogyny, regardless whether those characters are well-written or not?

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

+1000

"Other people have an unconscious bias that comes through in their creative work, but not me."

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

Which is more likely? - there's misogyny in a male dominated industry where most producers are male, most directors are male, most writers are male, and most actors are male so the female characters in that industry are almost always misogynistic and the women watching it are tired of it OR the female characters are just like the male characters and it's the (apparently only) women watching it who are misogynistic.

Because it's only women or people in female dominated hobbies and spaces who get called misogynistic for not liking female characters.

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

Lmao right?

'Fiction has inherent biases but *I* am no mere mortal and am above all of that.'

The sucky reality is that misogyny permeates everywhere in society and yes this does come out in fiction sadly, but this also exists in us too. People in general, not just fans, are so goddamn harsh on female characters that 'overstay their welcome' in any given movie/show or who 'take up too much room'. Female characters have to be excellent and above par for the media in question... but they also can't exist in the narrative too much because THEN she's taking away from the MEN and WE CAN'T HAVE THAT.

How do people not get how absurd that is?

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

DA people just love to ignore the shittily-written men who get ridiculous amounts of attention and love, because it doesn't fit into their "femalr characters are alwys worse" narrative.

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

See: most shonen manga. Yes, a lot of the female characters are shittily written. And so are a lot of the male characters who aren't the main lead, because most shonen manga authors aren't stellar character writers in general and the other characters are largely just there either to prop up the MC or be their foil.

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

People just love to pretend male characters are written as badly as female characters on a regular basis when it fits their "misogyny is a thing except in (mainly dude-written and -aimed; see shonen anecdote below) fiction and every female character I personally like is an objectively good character because I like her" narrative.

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

That also goes in the other direction: "every female character I personally dislike is an objectively bad character because I dislike her."

We all seek post-hoc justifications for why we like or dislike something, and tell ourselves that our juatifications are more "rational" than other people's. But in reality, we're all reasoning backwards from a set of emotional responses.

That's what makes this such a frustrating discussion. We all start from the assumption that a) we're using logic, and not emotion; and b) that if we're using emotion, our emotional responses are more "pure," less touched by culture than those of our interlocutor.

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

Dude there are SO many badly-written male characters who get oodles of love. See: literally any goddamn fandom.

Re: DA

[(Anonymous)]

Do you know what the word "some" means?

[(Anonymous)]

"When a women is badly written, she's often the only major female character in the canon, and the others are either nonexistent or too minor to expect any characterization."

What... what canons are you consuming that only have a single major female character in them?

[(Anonymous)]

Exactly! For example a lot of people usually do not care about heroes in the story. But they do love funny sidekick or the evil guy etc. But if you have one woman you don't have a choice of characters. And if she is written by another writer who tries and fails to do a girlboss...

Also yes, I prefer different traits in male and female characters because there are years of media and different expectations and tropes. So for example I would like male character who runs and cries and is obviously afraid but still is a good person. And I do not care for female character like this.

[(Anonymous)]

There's a difference between preferring certain tropes in male/female characters and thinking said trope makes a character bad when it's in a character of one gender but not the other, though.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, sure. That's why it has nuances. Sometimes people are just misogynistic. Right now I am talking about my own preferences. But I am not a person who goes around saying that character A is a bad character to start with. I just invest my time in characters I like. But oh boy do I get annoyed by hollier than you attitude "why are you sleeping on this female character". Because I am not interested in her, that is all.

[(Anonymous)]

+infinity