[ SECRET POST #6454 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #6454 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


01.



__________________________________________________





















02. [WARNING for discussion of ableism]




__________________________________________________



03. [WARNING for discussion of violence/gore/RL death]




__________________________________________________



04. [WARNING for discussion of transphobia]




__________________________________________________



05. [WARNING for discussion of transphobia]




__________________________________________________



06. [WARNING for discussion of transphobia]

[Dr. Becky/YouTube]



__________________________________________________



07. [WARNING for discussion of incest]





















Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 00 secrets from Secret Submission Post #922.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Didn't like most of european royalty which most of his stuff is loosely based on have incestual marriages and kids anyway? It's not like it's from nowhere

[(Anonymous)]

Ehhhhhh, not GoT levels of incest, though. In medieval times, cousin marriage wasn't considered incest, necessarily. There were degrees of consanguinity, sure. But those could be gotten around via a Papal dispensation. The Spanish played a lot more fast and loose with marriages that we would definitely consider incest (like uncle/niece marriages), but I'm not sure how much they served as an inspiration to GRRM.

[(Anonymous)]

Well GoT I feel is like all the dramatic shit about the european royalty turned up to 11, kinda? Like all the murder and plotting and slavery and rape and torture are played up for drama so the incest is too

[(Anonymous)]

Again, ehhhh, kind of. But regular brother/sister marriage would be a HUGE exaggeration from English history, which is where GRRM is thought to have drawn most of his inspiration. Even the Hapsbergs didn't go that far. And by history standards, murder and plotting and slavery and rape and torture aren't that played up. A lot of violent shit went down in those days.

[(Anonymous)]

I should add, it's more likely he got the idea for brother/sister incest from Ancient Egyptian history then European.

[(Anonymous)]

"Necessarily" sounds like the keyword. I recently read someone who was asserting that the early church forbade cousin-marriage in a political bid to weaken the family ties and clan-strength of everyone below the level of the aristocracy, while still assuring everyone that it was perfectly moral for the rich and the royals. They didn't have a clue about genetics, at the time, but this created unintended genetic-fitness benefits for commoners.

I was like ... "something to look into?" Because it's the first time I'm hearing that.

[(Anonymous)]

I hadn't heard that, myself. I'm a bit dubious. There's little point in weakening family ties and clan strength in mere peasants, surely? It's the aristocracy where you get powerful lords building marriage allies and gaining wealth and power enough to challenge the ruling king.

Also, when you say the early church... keep in mind that cousin marriage isn't prohibited in the Bible.

[(Anonymous)]

1st Cousin marriage still isn't illegal in the UK, though you will be the butt of a lot of jokes. However, you have to have multiple generations of even 1st cousin marriages to get the same genetic damage as even a single brother/sister or father/daughter incestuous relationship.

[(Anonymous)]

It depends on what you mean by 'incestuous'? I am not aware of any major brother-sister incest going on, but there was definitely a lot of intermarriage and line-crossing between cousins and so on.

The most famously inbred Habsburg was Charles II - his father was his mother's uncle, and his mother's parents were first cousins, I believe.

[(Anonymous)]

Replied with similar stuff above but I get the feeling GRRM looked at all that and went 'ok how do I make it worse for more drama' and went with it, like he did with everything else

[(Anonymous)]

NAYRT
Yeah, there was "plausibly acceptable incest based on historical values" (the intermarriages) and then the drama incest (Cersei and Jaime) that in canon itself is treated as disgusting. The latter I think could draw from the dubious rumours about the Borgias, but the Lannister incest was definitely used by GRRM as a shocking plot point and not just set dressing. None of ASOIF would have kicked off with Bran seeing that shit and the subsequent coverup, after all!

[(Anonymous)]

The Hapsburgs did, particularly the Spanish Hapsburgs, but I'm not as sure about the other royal families. Look up Charles the Bewitched to see how bad it got.