fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1005 ]

[ SECRET POST #1005 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1005 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

101.

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102.

[Albert Ellis/Carl Rogers]

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103.

[Soul Eater]

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104.

[Loony Toons]

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105.

[Glee]

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106.

[Dreamcatcher]

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107.

[Dollhouse]

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108.

[Air Force One]

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109.

[Folklore]

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110.

[Final Fantasy 9/Phoenix Wright/Mega Man/Gurren Lagann]

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111.

[Patrick Stewart/Jeremy Northam/Hugh Laurie/Cary Grant]

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112. [too big]

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113.

[07-Ghost]

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114.

[Supernatural]

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115.

[Charm School]

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116.

[Avatar]

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117.

[Bosom Buddies]

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118.

[Fame]

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119.

[X-Factor]

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120.

[Kev and Alice]

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121.

[Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle]

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122.

[Scott Gairdner]

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123.

[Zero Punctuation, Guitar Hero World Tour, Neon Genesis Evangelion]

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124.

[Questionable Content]

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125.

[Homeward Bound]

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126.

[Supernatural/Pita-Ten]

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127.

[Lena Headey]

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128.

[Veronica Mars]

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129.

[Last Days, deleted scene]

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130.

[Supernatural, The Amazing Race]

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131.

[The Dresden Files]

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132.

[Song of Ice and Fire]

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133.

[The Vampire Diaries]

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134.

[Supernatural]

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135.

[Juno]

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136.

[Elijah Wood]

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137.

[Life on Mars]

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138.

[Days of Our Lives]

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139.

[Good Omens]

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140.

[The Mentalist]

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141.

[Supernatural]

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142.

[Lie to Me]

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143.

[Supernatural]

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144.

[Burn Notice]

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145.

[Fullmetal Alchemist]

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146.

[3rd Rock from the Sun]

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147.

[Supernatural]

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148.

[Dr. Horrible's Sing-Along Blog]

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149.

[Song of Ice and Fire]

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150.

[Gyro Gearloose/Uncle Scrooge]

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151. http://i37.tinypic.com/acwnrc.png
[porn... I think?, A Mate]

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152.

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153.

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154.

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155.

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156.

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157.

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158.

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159.

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160.

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161.

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162.

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163.

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164.

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165.

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166.

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167.

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168.

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169.

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170.

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171.

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172.

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173.

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174.

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175.

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176.

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177.

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178.

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179.

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180.

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181.

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182.

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183.

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184.

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185.

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186.

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187.

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188.

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189.

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190.

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191.

Notes:

New affiliates I forgot to announce!

wow_secrets - for all you World of Warcrafters.
Accompanying

startrek_secret,

st_secrets_arc - all the ST secrets from FS in a convenient archive!

Secrets Left to Post: 10 pages, 250 secrets from Secret Submission Post #144.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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So you're saying that Castiel is capable of being skeevy, but that this isn't an issue anyways because he was only being spiritual?

WAT? Please enlighten me as to what brand of Buddhism this would be.

No, I was trying to say it's possible to be both.

And maybe he was styling himself as the next person to attain enlightenmight, in which case it would be Castiel!Buddhism.

I think it'd be better off not to refer to it as any kind of Buddhism. It's not related whatsoever. I'm also pretty sure that Castiel was lying about any kind of spiritual pursuits, his real motivation and rationale for his behavior was admitted to past Dean. He was being hedonistic and self-loathing.

I still think it was a bit of a leap to have Castiel change in that way without more being revealed as to how it came about. But that's just me wanting more Supernatural anyways.

Well, I mentioned the Buddhism only because there was a statue of Buddha in his little tentland. So I assume that there's SOME connection, given that hunters are a very well read lot, when it comes to religion, as far as we can see.

Eh, I don't buy it. I didn't think he was being very self loathing-- he called himself powerless, and I thought he was trying to reclaim that sense of power. Now, how he did that could be totally skeevy, but I didn't at all see it as I HATE MYSELF LETS DROWN MY SORROWS.

There was a statue in the tentland, but it doesn't mean that it was in any way related. Someone could have brought that themselves, a non-participant of the orgies. Hunters being well-read also has nothing to do with creating a pseudo religion using a statue of Buddha, so I don't know what you meant by that.

As for Castiel, I saw no evidence of him reclaiming his power, only him indulging in hedonism because he had accepted the end of the world. As he put it, "Why not bang a few gongs before the lights go out."

What I meant was that if it were total non-Buddhist BS he was trying to preach, and then trying to pass that off as part of Buddhism, that that's something the ladies would pick up on. (Of course, this does go on the theory that it's Castiel's statue, but I see no reason to go against that assumption.)

If you don't think his position as some sort of guru and the instigator of orgies wasn't giving him a sense of power, I honestly won't be able to convince you. But he was holding a degree of religious/spiritual power over those women, if not sexual power, and I certainly think that "banging a few gongs" would be the nicely explainable side bonus to getting his power-on by getting his rocks off.

My comments were mainly addressing this:
And IDK about you, but I got the idea that he had randomly converted to Buddhism and believed a lot of what he was saying.

He might, in his pursuit to indulge in hedonism and all sorts of desires, be attempting to feel powerful again, but that's different than being spiritually empowered and buying the bullshit he's selling which is what you originally commented on.

I'm still not getting what you mean about the ladies picking up on him passing off Buddhism as something that it isn't. Do you mean that he wouldn't be able to pass off this false Buddhism if the ladies were well-read, therefore there had to be something genuine about it? I think it'd make more sense if it wasn't Buddhism at all, rather a catch-all pseudo mystical spiritualism he was selling. This would make more sense than trying to twist Buddhism around to fit orgies, but still referring to it as Buddhism because there's a statue there.

I don't really think it couldn't be a mixture of both, myself. Why not believe, and be willing to get power from that belief?

That's exactly what I'm saying. He can't pass of fake Buddhism for Buddhism because they would catch onto it, meaning he either a) isn't selling it as that despite the statue or b) is selling it as that, and in a convincing way, even though we weren't really seeing it on screen.

We really, really didn't get enough of him to say for sure. We've got evidence to work off of, but one guess is going to be as good as another.

You're talking about two different things here. You can get power from manipulating women with false beliefs, but there is no power coming from the belief itself as far as Castiel's concerned. The belief in question here is that "We're each a fragment of total perception -- Just, uh, one compartment. In that dragonfly eye of group mind. Now, the key to this total, shared perception -- It's, um... it's surprisingly physical."

His main motivation is in indulging in decadence, not "total perception." In fact, if he really did believe in that bullshit, he wouldn't be manipulating the women which would mean that he's not gaining power over them in skeevy ways. The two contradict each other.

I'd side with position A. He's not selling Buddhism, it's just a statue in the background. He could be referencing it somehow, but he's not teaching Buddhism. If he were selling it a different way, it still wouldn't be Buddhism.

Yes, they are two things-- but at the same time, I don't see why they couldn't also be part of one, bigger thing.

And really, I don't think believing it means he wouldn't be manipulating those women AT ALL. I don't think one has to prevent the other on any level whatsoever.

Yes, which is fine-- but there's no reason I can't side with position B. It's all a matter of perception, and we perceived the scene differently.

I'm not saying that believing in that bullshit would mean he wouldn't want to manipulate the women. I'm saying that if he truly believed that bullshit, it wouldn't be a form of manipulation, he'd be telling the truth and acting upon it. And, if it wasn't a form of manipulation, then he wouldn't be getting a sense of power from manipulating women. It just doesn't follow.

The bottom line for what I'm saying is that he doesn't believe in total perception or whatever mumbo jumbo he was preaching. He gives no indication of it whatsoever to Dean, his main goal is physical pleasure and the bullshit was a means to that, not an additional end in and of itself.

I don't think that's true at all. Even if it's just the power of being wanted, of having people follow them-- that's still power. I can't imagine any religious leader feeling anything but empowered by the people they're preaching to hearing their message.

Yeah, and I can appreciate that. But when I was listening, I didn't think "he doesn't believe this, this is all a hoax for sex". And so that's left with him believing it, for me, at least partially.

I got that his main goal was regaining a sense of power (via going out with a bang). But for me, that isn't exclusive to also believing some of the stuff he was saying. YVMV.

The thing is, Castiel isn't preaching about empowerment coming from a being a spiritual leader, he's preaching about "total perception" or whatever. He's not getting any power from the belief itself. He could be seeking power, as I've mentioned before, but only from a hedonistic standpoint, not a spiritual one. Even power coming from acting as a spiritual leader is not spiritual empowerment, that's just him indulging in more pleasure seeking.

When I heard him spouting off that stuff about dragonflies I understood it to be a hoax because of the inconsistency of his statements, the random examples he used, and his hesitation mid-way through the speech so as to indicate improvisation. If he was a sincere subscriber to that mess of a religion he was spouting, it wasn't shown in the episode.

I guess there could be some room left in the gaps of the episode for it to be true, but I personally find it too hard to fill convincingly.

See, that's the thing-- I don't. ;) Maybe I would be one of his slutty little groupies, but IDC, I don't read it the same way, and am a-okay with that.

:D I generally encourage all things which do anything at all to go against the grain that a lot of fandom has Castiel trying to fit into.

To be honest, I thought this whole episode flew in the face of a lot of Castiel's characterization to begin with. I agree with the above commenter that there just wasn't enough shown of anything really to fully explain those changes. I think the whole orgies thing was playing on the whole whorehouse thing, one super comedic play following after the other (with less real consideration put towards the characters or the story). It's fine, yeah, the show can't all be serious business all the time, but I thought it wasn't done well.

As for fandom's perception of Castiel, I don't think it's consistent at all. He's kind of a blank Keanu Reeves canvas that way. You see what you see.

I thought it was actually a meta moment-- I sort of LOLed at it because it reminded me of nothing so much as Misha and his fen/Mishaland, but in a way I DIDN'T find creepy. Which is kind of ironic. ;)

Maybe I just have the ability to find him most of the time done in such a way it makes me want to claw my eyes out. I have avoided most of the fic involving him because of it, going off of recs almost only-- but it doesn't really help.

I would love it if it was a meta commentary on the Mishaland Mishawives, but I'd find that pretty depressing. Does that mean meta-wise they're breaking Cas D:

I do think that's way easier to swallow than them just wanting to include a dumb orgy joke though.

(no subject)

zanzou-chan.livejournal.com - 2009-10-07 02:07 (UTC) - Expand

eh, not really, he was just doing whatever drugs he could get his hands on and pretty much waiting to die (that conversation he had with past dean in the truck). really, he sounded downright hopeless under the creepy junkie laugh.

Well, you would, in his situation. Apocalypse, ex-angel-dumped-by-his-angelic-family, the longest tie he's had to the human world going on a crazy self destruct spiral-- not much reason for hope.

I didn't get "wants to die", myself. As I said somewhere else in the thread, I got "wanted to regain control of his life", which was part of why he was enjoying having the little orgy-girl-minions, IMO.

not "wanted", really, more like "fuck it, i'm gonna die sooner rather than later, might as well have some self-destructive fun while i wait for it"

I don't really think what he was doing was all THAT self-destructive, really. Sex and drugs-- as far as I could tell, not the very addictive/dangerous ones that cause most problems-- are not necessarily bad things. Decadent, sure, but not self destructive.

At most, it's unconcerned about what they would do to themselves through decadent living, not seeking out things that are harmful automatically.

You can be skeevy and Buddhist at the same time. Trufax. I knew a guy once who claimed to be Buddhist but was the biggest creep ever.

It's a matter of self-identification. If Cas self-identifies as Buddhist, then he's Buddhist, even if his particular apocalyptic brand of Buddhism is very.....special....and not at all what we normally consider Buddhism.

It's not Buddhism, and there's no mention of Castiel claiming to be one. There's only a statue seen in the background of the refugee camp. Castiel hasn't mentioned anything related to Buddhism, only generic terms that are relatable to any kind of spiritual mysticism.

It would probably make more sense if Castiel was skewing and creating his own particular brand of Judeo-Christian mumbo jumbo in order to capitalize on his ex-angelic status.

My bad. Just saying, though.

IMO considering the 5YL obviously shows he never managed to find God, I could see him mixing stuff from any religion, not just the Abrahamic ones.

I meant that in the context that he was spouting off about anything that would get him laid. The Abrahamic religions would best serve him in convincing people to sleep with him, because of the whole ex-angel thing.

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