Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2010-02-26 05:16 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2010-02-26 05:16 pm
[ SECRET POST #1148 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1148 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[Zachary Quinto]
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[AKA: Lies are like wishes]
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155. [SPOILERS for Lost]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #164.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - ships it ], [ 1 - would hit it ], [ 1 - take it to comments ], [ 1 - personal attack ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: My problem with minority activists
And honestly, I don't understand why you feel as defensive as you do here. There are some groups in which everyone is assumed to be automatically offended by something, and if they're not, they're called choice names. (In the disability community, people sometimes call other people "curebies" if they express the attitude that their disability is upsetting, impedes them, is a problem, etc. and don't automatically accept all aspects of the social model.) (FWIW, I'm very big on the social model, but I see no reason why denying people's experiences that don't neatly fit it makes any sense.)
And... sounds like you wouldn't agree with this, but while I disagree with some things I hear people deemed "curebies" saying, I don't feel attacked by their existing, or like they're claiming to be "good people with disabilities" where I am a "bad" one. If they say I'm oversensitive or the like, sure, I'll get mad. But when someone says "hey, my experience of my disability is different from these people's; I find it painful and annoying and not something I identify with, and I feel weird when people act as though I'm automatically supposed to agree" I don't feel attacked. There are all different kinds of experience of disability.
Not being a POC, I don't know exactly how race is the same or different. But I don't hear anyone telling you how you should feel about anything. I hear someone saying "I feel this way, and I keep hearing that I'm not in solidarity with My People. And funnily enough, very often those telling me I need to be more in tune with My People are... white folks. WTF. Ew."
I think it's very easy sometimes to get a twinge when someone says "I don't feel the same as you," a twinge that feels like hearing "Change your mind." But that's... not what I heard, at least.
Re: My problem with minority activists
(Anonymous) 2010-02-28 05:42 pm (UTC)(link)because I'm not sure how "what she said was entirely irrelevant" if you were responding to her.
The 'white people are telling me how to self-identify' was irrelevant, since none of that had happened in this thread. I do want to make it clear how much I hate that and that I do sympathize with the OPs frustration. Because no one had actually done that, arguing that she was only defending herself against the mean people who wouldn't let her ID as oriental (which is absolutely her right) was something of a straw man.
And honestly, I don't understand why you feel as defensive as you do here. There are some groups in which everyone is assumed to be automatically offended by something, and if they're not, they're called choice names
And if POC show any sort of frustration about racist language, people will accuse us of overreacting, being hypersensitive, or even hating all white people. To use one example, about two years ago I needed minor surgery. During the exam, the nurse started to explain the 1-10 pain chart and I said that I often found it confusing, since I know 1 = no pain and 10 = excruciating, but I didn't know what five, three, or seven indicated. She patted my arm and told me that most people couldn't figure it out, so nurses had developed a 'sixth sense' for how much pain people we're in. White people, she told me, would say that they were at a five, no matter how much it hurt, while Puerto Ricans (her term) would call a papercut a ten. When I told several of my (white) friends about it, they kept explaining that it was 'just a joke' and that I shouldn't be so 'into my race.' And this is just one particularly scary example (since that nurse was responsible for my well-being, knowing that she would dismiss me if I said I was in pain was really anxiety producing).
I've also run into people like the OP before. POC commenting happily about how they aren't like those other POC, who are just so angry all the time. They're trying to position themselves as being good, at the expense of those who disagree with them. Because, here's the thing, white people think of POC as a monolithic group. If one says that something is inoffensive, then it must be really, truly inoffensive, and everyone who disagrees is an asshole.
I hear someone saying "I feel this way, and I keep hearing that I'm not in solidarity with My People. And funnily enough, very often those telling me I need to be more in tune with My People are... white folks. WTF. Ew."
Now, my experience with discussions of racism in fandom may be unique, but I've almost never seen that. That's not to say it doesn't happen, but it is rare. Furthermore, it erases all of the wonderful, insightful POC from these discussions, by pretending that we don't exist. That's why "it's all a bunch of butthurt white people," is offensive. Hell, look at yesterday's post. Someone said that they were SE Asian and that they Avatar movie offended them and at least one comment accused them of lying about their race.
To get into my own personal life again, it reminds me of something that happened while I was in college, when a friend tried to get me involved in a discussion of Affirmative Action by saying, "Don't you hate AA?" I open my mouth to respond, but she keeps going. "I mean, don't you feel bad knowing that the only reason you're here is because white people feel sorry for you?" She turns back to the other white people in the group. "Only whites like AA, because it appeases their guilt. Real Spanish (her term) people think it's insulting." She never gave me the chance to share my real opinion and I felt like I couldn't defend AA (which I am, ftr, in favor of), because it would mean admitting to my own inferiority. This attitude sets up impossible situations for POC, because if we agree with whatever idea they think only whites support, we're either Angry POC, or Uncle Toms.
Re: My problem with minority activists
And wow, yeah, that pain scale stuff is just *weird.* I can imagine there being cultural differences in how people talk about their pain, but leaping wildly to conclusions like that is ridiculous and, as you say, quite possibly dangerous. And even if she thought it, she had no reason to saddle you with her "wisdom," like you'd appreciate hearing it! Gack.
And I totally get you wrt the idea that people see POC as a monolithic group. I know I've made that mistake, and I've seen the same thing happen with respect to disability as well. People assume that the one person they know has The Truth and that's it and they never have to pay attention to or think about why someone else might feel differently from their buddy.
I hadn't seen that. Wow. Yuck!
Yikes. Yeah, that's really icky. (And FTR, I was given an accessible room in college that I didn't feel I needed and that I felt really bad about taking, and I was bitter the whole time that I'd been given it because I asked to be in the usual lottery for a slot because I did feel that they were giving it to me for reasons I didn't like, so yeah, my personal opinion on such things is complicated. (FWIW, despite that emotional reaction then, my considered position on whether things like AA should exist is "Yes.") But preempting your chance to talk about your own opinions by presuming you should feel insulted is gross. WTF.)