fandomsecrets | [ SECRET POST #1290 ]

[ SECRET POST #1290 ]

⌈ Secret Post #1290 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 108 secrets from Secret Submission Post #184.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 2 3 4 5 - not!fandom ], [ 1 2 3 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

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diff. anon

Yeah, I figure that's where you were going with your secret. And judging by the fact that you were butthurt enough to feel the need to make a whole secret about how your mean ol' fandom wasn't accepting of your views which are considered liberal by Southerners... yeah, I completely believe that you probably said some shit that wasn't as tolerant as you'd like to think.

I know many a Southern liberal who still have some fucked up views concerning gender, religion, race, sexuality, etc. I was born and bred in the South, too - LA and TX, y'all - but shit down here is specifically designed that you don't check your privilege until you absolutely fucking have to.

Fandom does include some of the most incredibly politically and socially aware people I've ever met - as fandom is often a refuge for cultural outsiders - so I have a hard time believing that you have not met one who was spot-on when they called you out.

but shit down here is specifically designed that you don't check your privilege until you absolutely fucking have to.

you say that like it's not true everywhere else

I feel like it's worse. Not that everywhere else is a fucking paradise or something (looking at you, North), but at least other places will make some earnest attempts at progress, and maybe even try to be the first ones to do it. Not down here! It's part of the "way of life", it's our "heritage"! Ignorant jackass motherfuckers.

There's a difference between being socially aware and being extremely over-sensitive and unrealistic. I've seen people in fandom called out for not refering to cisgendered people as cisgendered. I've been called racist based on nothing beyond the fact that I'm white, which, where I'm from, is a very serious accusation that shouldn't be taken lightly. I've been called homophobic for acknowledging that heterosexuality is more common than homosexuality, and therefore that a certain degree of "heteronormativity" is expected and shouldn't be a huge issue. Conservatives in fandom have been told to "go die" for voting for cuts in government spending. The general attitude towards Christians here is atrocious. I apparently "don't know what feminism means" and am "feeding the patriarchy" because I believe that, yes, men and women are genetically different.

The problem is that these people can't even begin to FATHOM that anyone who thinks differently than they do, and so they lose all validity in their arguments by writing off the other party as "ignorant" or "privileged" and simply insult them rather than actually proving their points. From my experience, it's not much better than being called the Antichrist for believing in evolution (yes, this actually happened). People online just think they can get away with it because they're allegedly "open minded" when in fact their just as close minded as the other extreme.

Woah, sorry for the rant there.

Okay, I can take out of context too a bunch of stuff people have called me out for and make it seem like people are coming after me for no damn reason.

Maybe it was important in that conversation you witnessed that the distinction between cisgendered and transgendered be made. Maybe you said some dumb bullshit white people who don't examine their privilege say sometimes. Heteronormativity shouldn't expected, because it's stupid social constuct and always has been, wtf. (Yes, it's gonna to happen, but it shouldn't be accepted or even tolerated, not in this day and age.) If someone advocated for cutting government spending in education, I'd fucking tell them to DIAF, too. (And I mean for them to literally die as much as that other person, c'mon now.) Continuing the trend of sweeping statements here, I think most Christianity intolerance comes from the British. (They really seem to have a huge hair up their ass about it. But I understand most people's intolerance of the Catholic church. Fucked up my life and I'm not even Christian!) And it's been pretty well-theorized that the genetic differences between men and women are negligible; but even though that's up for debate, what in God's name could you possibly be proving by bringing up that point other than to highlight the inherent differences in men and women in personality/ability/whatever? Which is absolutely and completely 100%, btw.

And you know, the fact that you write the entirety of fandom off based on your subjective experience and the fact you don't even consider fandom to be composed of a extremely diverse population with extremely varied opinions says a hell of a whole lot about you. Typical, in fact, of those Southern liberals I've known who try to be all "progressive" but still refuse to think of ethnic groups/gender groups/any sort of group as not being a monolith and composed of individuals.

Heteronormativitiy should be expected, because heterosexuality is normal. At least 90%, and probably more of the world's population is heterosexual. I'm not saying that people who produce media shouldn't be more inclusive, and that they shouldn't try to accurately portray LGBTQQIwhateverotherletters people, but saying that they should completely abandon the common societal orientation is ridiculous. Something being common doesn't mean that all other things are bad, but it should make sense that things would be modeled after them. Christians are as good and bad of people as any other group, and people who make broad statements about how intolerant and horrible they are are being close-minded. I think there are basic differences between men and women as broad groups. Men and Women think differently, like things differently, and view the world differently. According to many feminists, this view makes me anti-feminist, even though NOWHERE have I said that I think women are in any way inferior to men. And, before telling someone who wants to cut spending to DIAF, wouldn't it be better to listen to why, present your own opinion, and try to find a middle ground?

There are individuals in fandom who I've had very positive experiences with, but they do not outnumber the amount of overwhelmingly negative experiences I have had. Does this mean I will be unwilling to ever associate witha person in fandom again? No. Does it mean I will be more cautious in stating my views, due to bad experiences in the past? Yes, and anything else would be completely illogical.

Um, about your "feminist" views? The problem with "men and women think/view the world/like things differently" is that it generalizes all men and all women into stereotypes. Not all women, across nationality, class, and sexuality boundaries think the same. Nor do all men. In linguistic and neurological studies, it has been shown that the differences are so insignificant that they'd best be ignored. The differences between individual men or women are way higher and more interesting than differences between men and women.

Most "studies" claiming to have found earth shattering differences between the way men and women's brains work are bullshit, and they're usually used to justify treating women as "mysteries" people who can't think logically and who are all, universally, good at communication and dealing with babies.

Also if you believe that men and women are forever doomed to think differently, what does that mean for genderqueer people? What are its implications for transgendered people?

Saying men and women are biologically different is one thing, but claiming that "Men" and "Women" think and feel differently is pretty antifeminist.

On an individual basis, yes, a person of any gender can be better at anything than someone of another gender. Does that make it completely irrelivant that broadly one group is shown to have certain traits? No. If men and women aren't different, then there would be no reason for people to have a gender at all- we'd only have sexes. However, since there is such a thing as gender, since people exist whose gender is enough different from their sex that they have sex changes, I say there is enough of a difference between men and women to be talked about.

What are the implications for transgendered people? That they exist, and are perfectly valid. Because there is a certain way that men think and see the world, it's possible for a biological woman to think the same way and identify as a man. And vice versa. Personally, I don't get what the opposing opinion holds for transgendered people. If there's no difference at all mentally between the sexes, then why would someone change their physical sex to align with their mental gender? It doesn't make any sense.

Just because I think that men and women are different doesn't mean that I wouldn't up and become a mathematician who does construction work on the weekends if I ever got the urge. It doesn't mean that I think women should be guided into certain fields while men are guided into others. It certainly doesn't mean that I think women are in any way less than men. It just means it's there.

There isn't really one answer for this--as I think you ought well know, feminists aren't exactly in total agreement on this matter. You call yourself feminist, and you know, fine and dandy, I won't take away your feminist card if you do indeed support the full legal and social equality of women. And I get the feeling that's probably about where you put yourself? At the same time, your opinion of this does smack of a certain gender essentialism which I do, yes, find sexist.

There are feminists out there who, again, I'm not going to say they aren't, but who I find incredibly sexist and transphobic because their views on trans people are more or less what you would seem to predict: that since gender is a social construct, transgendered people are simply attempting to appropriate someone else's experience, are not real women, etc. That opinion does exist. I think it's pretty repugnant.

For myself and, I don't know, probably others as well, trans people demonstrate the intense variety of gender identifications, just like cis people do. I don't see it as there's a way that men think and view the world, and a biological female who thinks that way is a trans man. I actually find that a little weird, because it implies that there's a way all trans men (or women, by extension, I suppose) think or view the world, that they're the same kind of man, etc. Which is sort of problematic, I'd think. It's a sort of logic that I've seen applied in fairly damaging ways to trans women--assuming that they're all hyper feminine and hyper sexual, that they all present in the girliest of girly ways, etc.

The fact that I believe gender is 99% cultural construct tied loosely to a relatively insignificant amount of sexual dimorphism does not make it less real, or invalidate anyone's feeling for where they might fall in the vast spectrum of gender experiences and identifications. Culture is very real and incredibly important to us as human beings.

Wow, OP. I see why you've had so many 'negative experiences'. While you may be liberal, feminist, and anti-racist in your area, I take exception to basically everything you just said (except the thing about Christians). 'Heterosexuality is normal' - okay. So what is homosexuality, then? Not normal, I guess. Also I'm not sure you actually know what heteronormativity is.

I think the anon above me said all that really needed to be said about the 'men and women are innately different' thing.

I don't think those people are questioning your opinions or beliefs because you're from the south. I think they're doing it because they disagree with you.

I think I did assume the wrong meaning of heteronormativity. And yes, heterosexuality is normal. That means in no way that homosexuality is bad, or wrong, or unnatural.

You were called racist, anti-feminist, and homophobic (and possibly transphobic) because you are racist, anti-feminist, and homophobic and possibly transphobic.

Glad we got that one cleared up!

OP, I think your points are perfectly valid and I agree with all of them. I can see why so many people would jump at your throat for expressing said views, though. You say "normal" and people forget that normal means that it is what is more prevalent, not that is the right or correct way, to mention one.

I like to think I'm pretty liberal too, but I avoid these types of conversation because they tend to go horribly wrong and feelings get hurt, even if neither party wanted that result. I'm sorry you've experienced this repeatedly. But it's very admirable of you to remain calm and rational and not give up on fandom. :)

So you ARE a sexist, racist, homophobic douchebag, and everyone who thought that the secret sounded full of shit was right!

Awesome, thanks!

Hope you keep having more of those "negative" experiences of people telling you you're an asshole when you are.

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[ SECRET POST #1290 ]

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So what you're saying is...

completely different anon

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