[ SECRET POST #1387 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1387 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 051 secrets from Secret Submission Post #198.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[harukami]

...But yes, that is the point.

Because if you're constantly told, through words or actions, that you should be ashamed, you need to counterbalance it WITH pride.

If I get accused of "flaunting it" for having the gumption to hold a girl's hand -- in other words, not being afraid or ashamed enough not to -- they're assuming pride anyway.

So let's announce that pride for the sake of the people who are being forced to feel ashamed.

[(Anonymous)]

This is just where our opinions irrevocably differ, I guess. I don't feel that saying and acting as though I am not ashamed (because I'm not) is "pride," only confidence. And I feel that only confidence is necessary to combat shame.

I would be fine with being confident for the sake of people who are being forced to feel ashamed. Being proud of myself for being something that I was born into? Not my thing.

[harukami]

Since you're having trouble with the semantics of the term:

I think you are arguing a different dictionary definition of pride than I am. You're arguing the "sin" of pride -- an overblown sense of self-importance or ego.

I'm arguing a different pride, which is the one intended by pride groups:
* a becoming or dignified sense of what is due to oneself or one's position or character; self-respect; self-esteem.
* a feeling of honour and self-respect; a sense of personal worth

It is the "pride" which is counter to "shame", not the "pride" which is counter to "humility".

[fierceawakening.livejournal.com]

This, thank you.

[(Anonymous)]

The point I'm arguing is that I am not the only one who has problems with the semantics of the term. A large majority of the population has problems with the semantics of the term. When people hear "gay pride," they think "those gays flaunting themselves and thinking they're special." This is what a lot of people think when they see it, my family and friends' families included. My original point, way back before all this, was that the wording was unfortunate, and I didn't like it, because of this fact.

[harukami]

But what is the opposite of "shame", then, that pride groups could use instead? Shameless means something very different, and unashamed is a middleground term rather than representing events or social actions that represent the opposite of shame.


Also, the thing is, why really should we stop having a sense of pride in our identity and copping to it as such because other people would put us down for it? Other people would put us down for having this interest at all; that doesn't mean we should hide it.

I don't think the wording is unfortunate at all.


Out of curiosity, do you have the same problem with phrasing like "Proud to be an American" (or any other nationality; I'm Canadian but idk how "Proud to be Canadian" is seen outside Canada *g*) or anything like that? Because it's a similar "pride". People can misread that if they are anti-American to begin with but I think, generally, we know it means respectively "I'm happy to see my country's achievements and ideologies and feel that I can fit in with them".


We are working against the assumed normative. We are speaking to the people who need a sense of pride. So those are the terms used.

I understand that you don't like them, but I hope I've helped explain why it is a term that people do use and stick to and will uphold for gay pride, disability pride, etc. Even if you don't agree with me, I hope this helps explain why it was chosen because when you began to discuss this in this thread, it seemed like you believed that "flaunting themselves and thinking they're special" WAS a reason to use terms like that.

[(Anonymous)]

Confidence is one I suggested earlier in the thread. It has all the good meanings of "pride" without all the negative "overconfident" connotations.

Yes, I have the same problem with nationpride, racepride, every ___pride.

I don't believe I ever mentioned agreeing that people were flaunting themselves (in fact I did specifically acknowledge that for most people, pride was about overcoming adversity in a comment to fierceawakening). I was only acknowledging that it sounded like "flaunting" to other people and that other people thought so, but everyone apparently assumed I did agree. /shrug

[(Anonymous)]

Rephrased: no, I don't think most ___priders are flaunting themselves. I do think that the word pride makes it sound so, however, and do not like the term. I see where people who think that pride=flaunting might get that idea, because of the words used.

Is that clearer?

[harukami]

I understood what you were saying; to rephrase what I said, since you were responding as if that was the only meaning of the term, it sounded as if you believed that the intention of using that term was to bring up that connotation, not "opposite of shame".

That all aside, I'm pretty sure when push comes to shove anyone who'd think we're flaunting it will do so regardless of terminology used because, well, they think we're flaunting it for showing any signs of our existence anyway usually! And so it's more important to establish the pride elements for those who might need it in their lives than to hide it for the sake of people who might think badly of it.

Moving on, though; I think we've gone about as far with this as it's useful to go.

[(Anonymous)]

I did not believe that was the intention, but I do believe that it is a sad side-effect of that word choice. I don't think even you could deny that this is at least true to some degree.

Yep; I'm never going to like pride because of what it connotates to me and those around me, and you're never going to dislike it because of what it connotates to you and those around you. Nice talk, though.

[harukami]

You're right; I think some people might view it that way. I just also think the people who would take the word that way are also already biased enough that we could call it "gay happy fun time party" or "disability fuck this shit let's celebrate" and they'd still find some way to imply we're making ourselves sospecial and should tone it down. *wg* So the happy side-effects of the word outweigh the negative imho.

Yeah, nice talk.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think so... some of the people I know who do take it that way are gay themselves, and it's offputting to them, which I'm sure is not the intention. But the people I know aren't the people you know, etc etc.