[ SECRET POST #1446 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1446 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 13 pages, 302 secrets from Secret Submission Post #207.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[childings.livejournal.com]

Still stupid, since they can always find other fans who aren't idiots to hang around. Not to mention HOW will anyone know that they are watching anime unless they announce it to the whole world? It's pretty easy to watch something like that in secret if you really don't want anyone to know and GASP associate you with "nerds"

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

While I can agree the OP is cheating hirself by avoiding something that by zeir own admission ze might like just because the fans are idiots, I do think a lot of the responses to this secret are hyper-defensive projection ("Well I watch anime and I'm not an immature weeaboo!"). The OP was specifically talking about people ze knows, not anime fans in general.

Plus, I think the implication is that if ze checks out a series and ends up liking it a lot, ze won't want to keep quiet about it. Ze will want to find other people to talk about the show with, and the association will be out there. Of course, in that situation the best option is to just find a sane community online and keep a low profile IRL, but that's not always easy, either; ze could always slip up and wear an incriminating shirt to school or something.

What I'm saying is that I think all the cries of offended indignity say more about the insecurity of the commentors than of the OP. If you watch anime and have your shit together the OP wasn't talking about you anyway.

[(Anonymous)]

I know ze/zier/hirself is this whole "thing", but they/their/themselves as a way of being gender neutral exists, and unless this OP has specifically asked to be referred to in this way...I don't get it. (I complete agree with the comment otherwise, though it took me a little longer to read).

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

It's because they/their/themselves is incorrect if you're referring to a single person. Ze/hir/etc. may be clumsy, but it makes me feel weirder to knowingly use bad grammar.

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

If they/their is bad grammar, then using 'ze' is moon language.

Look, grammar is not what is written down in grammar books. I'm sure you've said "Bob and me are going to the store" before. It's what people actually use in real life. In real life, people use 'they' as a gender-neutral pronoun all the time.

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

I'm sure you've said "Bob and me are going to the store" before.

Actually, no. I haven't.

And no, what people use all the time is not correct grammar. "The way people talk in real life" is vernacular, not proper English. You'll find that people tend to misuse their native language a lot, too.

Lazy post-modern let's-relax-the-standards-instead-of-teaching-the-actual-subject shit like this is why the education system in North American countries is so fucking broken, and why everyone across the pond secretly (and not-so-secretly) points and laughs at us.

[(Anonymous)]

And making up grammar isn't exactly making them laugh at us less.

[jezmitt.livejournal.com]

I guess you're not a linguist.

[(Anonymous)]

It sounds retarded. I don't care if it makes transpeople feel good about themselves. Those fake pronouns sound retarded.

[(Anonymous)]

omg this comment was painful to read. Please, just use normal pronouns. You make good points but it's honestly hard to take anyone who uses "ze" and "hir" seriously. It looks and sounds utterly ridiculous.

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

So...uh...don't read it? You have the option to scroll, you know.

For the record, using "they" when referring to a single person sounds way more retarded because it's actually wrong, but whatever. Different strokes.

[(Anonymous)]

Singular they is perfectly grammatical English, despite Strunk and White's claims to the contrary. It's been in use for hundreds of years. Language Log predictably has a lot to say about it (http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?cat=27).

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

So says you. Sorry, but I'll believe Strunk and White (along with every English and writing teacher I have ever had) over some anonymous person on the internet, thanks.

[relmneiko.livejournal.com]

English teachers teach you so much that is wrong about language. Most English teachers can't even correctly define a noun. Also learn the difference between prescriptive and descriptive grammar.

[(Anonymous)]

Lol believe me, using "they" to refer to a single person does not sound any more retarded than "ze." Even if it's technically incorrect, language has evolved to the point where hearing "they" in reference to a single person shouldn't cause anyone to raise their eyebrows.

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

Maybe. It still makes me twitch, though. Which is why I'd personally rather use "ze," or at the very least "him or her."

[(Anonymous)]

Fair enough. I would use "him or her" personally, but in the end whatever you chose to do is really up to you.

[(Anonymous)]

...so instead you use something that isn't even recognized as an actual word?

Whether you're personally willing to look into it or not (because, "Oh dear, internet strangers are trying to tell me things! As the Elite All-Knowing Matron of the English Language, I must dismiss off-hand everything they say!"), there is debate among grammarians/linguists about whether or not "they" can be used as a singular pronoun. There's not really any debate about "ze," however, because it's not a real word.

But oh well. You just keep right on making up words. I'm sure Strunk, White, and your English teachers would wholeheartedly support you.

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

I have looked into it, actually. And I'm on the side of "no, it fucking can't." I would rather use a nonsense word that may at some point in the future turn into an accepted word (because no language ever invents new words as they're needed, no siree) than use something that is absolutely, verifiably wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

... you're something special, you know that? Instead of accepting something (singular they) which is already centuries in the process of becoming an accepted use of the word, you're only happy if you're at the very beginning of the creation of a new word.
Also, you commited the 'appeal to authority' fallacy multiple times in this discussion. Especially when the other anon provided you with a reference and you refused to read it because 'these people I know are more trustworthy than whatever you can cook up'.
Using made-up pronouns because you prefer them over 'they' is fine, but don't claim you have some sort of higher ground from which to shout down to all the people who wrongly use singular they. The point of language is communication and 'they' does the job a whole lot better than 'zie' or whatever.

[(Anonymous)]

Okay, that wasn't the clearest I've written, so I'll try again: Why can 'zie' turn into an accepted word and singular 'they' can't?

[kitty-wake.livejournal.com]

And no language ever presses old words into new meanings which people feel are needed either, right? Right? No language ever changes its grammar. Ever.

Personally, I prefer to err on the side of common usage than use a neologism which still looks rather jarring. Who knows? Zie might become common in the future, but if the eye is currently drawn to the use of this new word rather than to the content of the writing... I say it's time to use singular 'they'.

That, and personally it reminds me too much of the German pronoun 'sie'.

original anon

[(Anonymous)]

You've looked into it, and yet you still deny the ambiguity? You still believe it's "absolutely, verifiably wrong," despite the fact that there are professional linguists who don't see it as wrong?

Ya know, you're right. New words are invented, and they do become accepted over time. But, here's the thing: the exact same phenomenon happens with grammar. Language is dynamic; when it ceases to fluctuate, it dies. If you are for the adoption of new words, then you cannot, with any degree of intellectual honesty, be for the stagnation of grammar. To be so is to be a hypocrite, and to also be for linguistic stasis.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, and LOL at using genderless lingo but then calling something "retarded."

[dorknessrising.livejournal.com]

LOL at not knowing what "retarded" actually means outside of social justice arguments.