Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2011-01-05 04:09 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2011-01-05 04:09 pm
[ SECRET POST #1464 ]
⌈ Secret Post #1464 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 108 secrets from Secret Submission Post #209.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
Wow. Either you don't understand how analogies work, or you just demonstrated a terrifying view on consent and bodily autonomy. "Tough shit"? Tough shit if you get raped?
no subject
Let someone into your fridge, and they will most likely eat your food...
no subject
Your situation, being in an established relationship, is not the same as a casual or infrequent sex partner. Beyond that, if a hypothetical partner of mine suddenly seemed bored or uncomfortable, yes, I would ask if they were okay and wanted to continue, even if they were a long-term partner, because it's considerate and polite. I would hope anyone would react to a very obvious physical disinterest or dislike with concern and inquiry, instead of simply ignoring it because consent had been given at a previous time.
You're right about sex being non-vocal: I am extremely quiet during intimacy, and I express consent and non-consent through body language most of the time. If something hurts me, I don't go "Get off me, you fuck," I struggle and push my partner away, only speaking when absolutely pushed to do so. That is a sign of unwillingness and should cause hir to ask if something is wrong. When someone punches you for doing something, just because they didn't say "I don't like that" doesn't mean that it's not apparent that the partner doesn't like what is being done.
If I'm reading your opinion correctly, nonverbal consent is legitimate, but nonverbal lack of consent is not. That's kind of faulty. It is very easy to express non-consent through body language instead of words. In my case, I found it incredibly difficult to speak at all during intimacy. Not quite sure why. That doesn't invalidate my ways of showing that I wanted my partner to stop doing what he was doing.
It doesn't matter if someone says "no," or doesn't. If they repeatedly flinch away from you and are noticeably uncomfortable, then someone should ask if something is okay before continuing, and if they continue to do something that clearly is meriting a negative response, then they are acting without consent. I don't care if a woman doesn't say no. If she clamps her legs together when you put your hand between her legs, she is not consenting to your touching, and continuing to force your hand between her legs is sexual assault. One thing to consider is shock: Some people scream when they are surprised, some people are too startled to coherently say anything, and some completely shut down. Not being able to protest does not invalidate a situation being rape; if they are the type to shut down, they might very well have no idea how to deal with the situation and instead just stop resisting.
I've had very personal experiences involving situations where consent was dubious due to the nature of the situation. My ex was a very manipulative person who had a penchant for mindfucking people into giving dubious consent. He backed that with a stunning record of serial rape and child molestation, so.
Obviously, all of this isn't responding to this one comment, but the stance you've taken throughout this thread. Terribly sorry for the massive tl;dr, but I think you aren't quite interpreting the situation correctly, and some of the opinions you've expressed are, frankly, kind of dangerous.
no subject
Nonverbal non-consent is not illegitimate, it's just much harder to read. Pushing away would be very clear. So would flinching be. But a slightly absent look in their eyes, or simply silence (unless that is very atypical of them), or even less-enthusiasm-than usual might very well be signs of displeasure...or they might be signs of tiredness, having other things on their mind, etc.
I can think of occasions where I had sex in exactly those circumstances..and where I chose to have sex despite those circumstances. And yes, often my partner picks up on that...sometimes he doesn't.
So what we're talking about here: is that action that you have taken, within the context of that relationship, reasonably clear to be seen as non-consent? And if a partner is not capable of reading those signs correctly, without any malice intended, is it then still reasonable to accuse them of a crime as heinous as rape?
I do not see manipulation quite the same as rape. I also had an ex who was rather manipulative and frankly, a pathological,unfaithful liar.
The situation was a bit reversed, as from what I could make out, there had been some abuse inflicted on him at some point (but it's very hard to get to the actual truth even there)
Looking back, if having all the info, I might not have gotten involved with him.
But still,anything sexual that went on between us, was consensual considering the info I had at that time.
Finding out that he lied to me about some things, does not make it rape retro-actively, no matter how bad the deceit might have been.
And I do fear this thread has indeed gotten massively out of hand. And after a while I did just reply in short, simplified, answers that are in fact too simplified for the matter at hand.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-01-06 07:07 am (UTC)(link)no subject
I think trying to talk women into believing they were raped when they weren't, is pretty fucked up. And it's exactly how I can see false accusations being formed.
I liked all the sex I had in my life.
I had all of it voluntarily.
And I accept any possible screw-ups as my own.
Sex is just sex. I mean, it's great, but it's not some sort of magical, mystical experience bonding two souls that has to be perfect in every circumstance.
I do not describe to your ridiculous notions of rape, which is pretty much anything except for a woman asking "can we have sex now, please?" and having a ten-minute conversation about how they really feel prior. Which really is NOT the way I like my sex.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-01-06 09:14 am (UTC)(link)I'm not saying that you specifically are in denial about having been raped, I'm saying that that's how I read your comment. I'm glad I was wrong, and I should never have brought it up in the first place. But the things you're saying are harmful and dismiss and minimize the experiences of women who WERE raped. And in my experience (which is not exhaustive by any means) a lot of women who minimize and dismiss the experiences of other women have had an experience that was NOT consentual, but they have decided (that's not the right word, but I'm tired) that what happened to them definitely wasn't rape, it couldn't have been rape... and therefore isn't rape if it happens to another woman.
I believe you when you say all the sex you've had has been consentual... you're lucky. But there are uncounted thousands of women who are having or have had sex that to an outside observer would look exactly like the sex you had when you just weren't interested but wanted your partner to have a good time... but they knew if they tried to say no their abusive partner would get more violent, or they were too drunk to realize what was happening, or they were sick with the flu and gave in after hours of increasingly angry cajoling by their boyfriend for sex because they just wanted it to stop. Is any of that really consenting? Do you have any idea how many women who've been raped feel that there's no point in going to the police or even telling a friend about what happened to them because they have been bombarded all their lives by attitudes like yours, and they know that rather than being supported they'll be doubted at every turn for not having fought back enough, for having kissed him, for having gotten into a cab with him, for having been able to have a conversation with him in their group of mutual friends the next day, for not having divorced him... every single action they took or did not take will be second-guessed because of attitudes like yours.
Okay, here's the thing. You don't have to have a ten minute conversation about every sex act in order to obtain consent. No one is even saying that for god's sake.
But put yourself in the shoes of these guys you keep bringing up who somehow don't know that what they're doing is rape... If that's what it took, wouldn't a ten minute conversation be worth it, if it meant you knew for sure that you weren't raping someone?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-01-06 01:44 pm (UTC)(link)no subject
But sorry, the reply was a bit more aggressive than intended.
At what point does manipulation become abuse? At what point is a lie so big that it effectively removes the ability of the other person to consent?
That is a tricky case. To try and be slightly more specific, without putting blame on a relationship that is long gone.
Not all manipulation is sexual, and therefore I could never call it rape, in any way or form.This was the case with the boy I was referring to.
I do of course see it as harmful, which is why I ended the relationship in the first place. But not all things harmful to women (or men) are of a sexual nature.
To elaborate, or clarify my point: Had I had all the info I have now, I would most likely not have entered a relationship with him, sexual or otherwise.
That does not mean, that within current knowledge I had then, the relationship- sexual and otherwise was pleasurable and consensual.
Which is what I was clumsily referring to as crying "retro-active rape".
By which I mean, regretting what you have done *after* the fact, while consent - possibly even the enthusiastic kind- did exist at the time of sexual relations.
Is he a liar? Most definitely.
Was that relationship bad for me, in retrospect? -Towards the ending, yes, which is why it ended.
Did he rape me?- Most definitely not.
The sex was not the harmful part in that relationship. Actually, him constantly playing the victim through drama and guilt-tripping was. Perhaps this is why I do on occasion have alarm bells with people who assume victim positions as a sort of life philosophy, as being a victim once does not give you carte blanche for a life-long right to play that card.
to an outside observer would look exactly like the sex you had when you just weren't interested but wanted your partner to have a good time...
And this is where my problem in this discussion is. Under some people's definitions, performing this act, which was entirely consensual, would be seen as rape. Which would be wrong. That is what I second-quess.
If a friend would come to me upset, saying that she was coerced into sex with a man, I surely would not call her a big fat liar. I would try to help her and bring her justice as well as I could. And take her at face value.
But contrary, if one of my male friends came to me upset, saying he was innocently being accused of rape, I would also take that at face value. I wouldn't disbelieve him just because he's a man, and therefore must be evil.
Rapists, of course, should be prosecuted severely. But just because of that reason, you need to be sure. Creating a situation where women are always seen as victims, and men always as perpetrators, is ALSO not a healthy culture. Worse, that disempowers women.
Of course if a 10-minute conversation would be what it took, it would be worth it. I'm just saying that not all sex happens in that specific order of things, and that does not make it rape by definition.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2011-01-06 04:33 pm (UTC)(link)I think you are being overflattering.