[ SECRET POST #1570 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #1570 ⌋


Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


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Notes:

Early day today! (:

Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 56 secrets from Secret Submission Post #224.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 1 - repeats ]
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments and concerns should go here.

Comments

[alanahikarichan.livejournal.com]

You may come across them less, but there are still some out there.

There are cases of people jumping the gun, I will admit that-- but they jump to mind because no one ever remembers the completely justified arguments, or they ignore the context and patterns that events occur in. I am sure someone somewhere has been attacked for not mentioning a single female character in their fanfic... but that's because there's also fanfic like this (http://weiss-badfics.livejournal.com/113276.html), where murdering a girl is perfectly acceptable and romantic.

And you don't have to be trying to make a social statement or say anything about oppression for it to make it into your fiction. I'm sure the author of the work linked had no intention of making a social statement about how much she hates other women, but that doesn't mean that the misogyny isn't there, or shouldn't be addressed.

Does this make sense?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not disagreeing with most of your points. In fact the only issue I have is - unless it's something that is obviously making a statement/racist/another ism, it's quite possible that whoever ends up bringing it up is reading too deeply into it. I'm not saying that it isn't sometimes in the fic but there are times when a fic is written a certain way because someone requested it...and I've also seen people jump down someone's throat for something that is vague enough that you have to squint to see what the person is upset about.

Sometimes it really is a case of 'a cigar is just a cigar'.

[kallanda-lee.livejournal.com]

I see your point, but you're making the assumption that people would agree to what they write in real life. As god-awful as that fic is (and I do not know the fandom), It might be the case of severe hatred towards one character, not womankind in general. Again, I do not know the fandom, I do not I do not know the author or their real opinion on women, and it's the kind of fic I'd usually call "immature" more than anything else. And I'm not saying it's healthy to have huge hatred for a fictional character, but fact remains that the writer might be a perfectly nice person in real life, who is using fanfic to vent things, and not secretly a woman-hating fiend.

[kallanda-lee.livejournal.com]

And I seem to have lost part of my post: I am not currently so prolific, but I have written about things I would not agree to in real life, because it makes for an interesting story: like vigilantism, drugging someone you love, or about a murder victim welcoming her death.
I might have written some minorities as less-the-perfect, because you know, I like morally ambiguous, walking the line between good and evil characters, because they're interesting. But in context of social justice I could see how someone could focus on one character being put in a bad daylight, while pretty much everyone in that fic is inherently flawed.

Furthermore, I'm a big fan of equality. In the original word, much more like the very early feminists saw it. I do not see SJ as equality. I see it as having to watch your words for very little reason. I see it as leading to statements like "Oh, they deserve it, because they're white/male/straight." Instead creating equality, I feel that it accentuates difference, and not in the good way. If that makes sense.

Sorry, I kinda ranted on you

[(Anonymous)]

Which 'very early feminists' are we talking about here? The essentialist first-wave feminists? The racist, classist, and transphobic second-wave feminists? I mean, if you want some real man-hating, look at some of the really extreme second-wave feminists. The people on lj who often get labeled as man-haters have absolutely nothing on some of those second-wavers - it would blow the minds of some of the commentors here, I swear. So, were those the 'early feminists' you were talking about? Because uhhhhh, their 'equality' was pretty problematic and that's an issue that's been pretty well discussed by a lot of people over the past decades.

I think at this point it's becoming a semantics argument. Some people see the words "social justice" and think "those jerks on lj who just yell about privilege." Others, myself include, still seem to see it as "erasing prejudice and making people more aware of the prejudices that are ingrained in our society!" Maybe it's because when I talk to people offline who work in human rights, equity studies, and social work, the second definition is still what I see. I honestly think way too many commentors here are letting their heads and ideals become clouded by some extremists, to the point where they won't listen to the actual receivers of oppression if they try to explain their perspective of an issue.

So to you, if "social justice" isn't equality, how on earth is equality ever going to be reached?

Re: Sorry, I kinda ranted on you

[kallanda-lee.livejournal.com]

Hey,

If I see some comments on LJ, then no, it does not strike me as equality. To me equality means you have equal legal protection and equal opportunities in life, and equal rights to live your chosen lifestyle and express your own view, be their religious, political or personal.
Equality to me, is treating a person on face value, not on the color of their skin, or the gender of the person they come home to.


Social justice here seems to be very much about policing people, especially in their language, which I think has the opposite effect: it breeds resentment or a I-don't-care-about-your-cause attitude.

I hear things that do not promote equality, but rather what we used to call "positive discrimination". Along the lines of, "well, because they were oppressed so long they now deserve..."

Also situations where it becomes almost impossible to criticize a person of one group when you belong to another group. even if you're criticizing them on aspects that have nothing to do with the group they belong to, but their character/

Hell, the whole concept of people having privilege over others, and them belonging to certain groups, is to me not beneficial to actual human interaction. It may work as hypothetical social model, sure. But so many things do. If I interact with a man, I do not want him thinking he has privilege over me (and I do not consider him to have any, because in my had I'm perfectly equal). Considering the privilegde,
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Hey,

If I see some comments on LJ, then no, it does not strike me as equality. To me equality means you have equal legal protection and equal opportunities in life, and equal rights to live your chosen lifestyle and express your own view, be their religious, political or personal.
Equality to me, is treating a person on face value, not on the color of their skin, or the gender of the person they come home to.


Social justice here seems to be very much about policing people, especially in their language, which I think has the opposite effect: it breeds resentment or a I-don't-care-about-your-cause attitude.

I hear things that do not promote equality, but rather what we used to call "positive discrimination". Along the lines of, "well, because they were oppressed so long they now deserve..."

Also situations where it becomes almost impossible to criticize a person of one group when you belong to another group. even if you're criticizing them on aspects that have nothing to do with the group they belong to, but their character/

Hell, the whole concept of people having privilege over others, and them belonging to certain groups, is to me not beneficial to actual human interaction. It may work as hypothetical social model, sure. But so many things do. If I interact with a man, I do not want him thinking he has privilege over me (and I do not consider him to have any, because in my had I'm perfectly equal). Considering the privilegde,
[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<i<>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

Hey,

If I see some comments on LJ, then no, it does not strike me as equality. To me equality means you have equal legal protection and equal opportunities in life, and equal rights to live your chosen lifestyle and express your own view, be their religious, political or personal.
Equality to me, is treating a person on face value, not on the color of their skin, or the gender of the person they come home to.


Social justice here seems to be very much about policing people, especially in their language, which I think has the opposite effect: it breeds resentment or a I-don't-care-about-your-cause attitude.

I hear things that do not promote equality, but rather what we used to call "positive discrimination". Along the lines of, "well, because they were oppressed so long they now deserve..."

Also situations where it becomes almost impossible to criticize a person of one group when you belong to another group. <i> even if you're criticizing them on aspects that have nothing to do with the group they belong to, but their character/ </i>

Hell, the whole concept of people having privilege over others, and them belonging to certain groups, is to me <i> not </i> beneficial to actual human interaction. It may work as hypothetical social model, sure. But so many things do. If I interact with a man, I do not want him thinking he has privilege over me (and I do not consider him to have any, because in my had I'm perfectly equal). Considering the privilegde, <i< THAT </i> would actually cause a disbalance in power, that would cause a mentality of inequality. Because the moment you start thinking that you should take heed in the interactions with a certain other group, you're basically creating inequality.

I think stopping thinking in boxes of gender, race, orientation is actually more conductive to equality that in accentuating those boxes.