[ Officially moving to Dreamwidth! Announcement post. ]

[case]

FS is moving! So, as you may or may not have heard, due to these new comment changes on top of the old ones, FS will be shifting over to DW. I'm hoping to do it starting next Saturday. From then, the main posts will be over at the community on Dreamwidth. But don't panic yet! It's not all too different. Here's how it'll work: 0. There won't be any downtime. One post a day will continue! 1. The main post is on FS @ dreamwidth. Everything over there works pretty much the exactly same as it does over here on LJ, with the addition of a few important features (detailed below in the "why we're moving" section). 2. But don't worry, you won't miss your daily post even if you're sticking solely to LJ. I'll be updating FS @ LJ as well with a link to the post on DW. It'll be exactly what you see on every other FS post on the Recent Entries page (image #1 and a cut), except the cut will take you over to the main post over there. You'll still receive LJ notifications from LJFS and see when it updates on your friendlist and everything. You don't have to go anywhere! 3. Submissions posts will go up on DW, but since it's anon anyway, there's no need for you to make an account. If you are interested in making an account, it's still free, but it's not absolutely necessary. (For now/this week, keep using the LJ post. Everything in there will still go up next week after the move. All submissions posts after that will be on Dreamwidth, though.) 4. Comments will be over at DW, but openID is available and you can easily post with your LJID (info and links at the bottom of this post). Alternatively, if you have a DW account, you can remain logged into DW, just like with LJ - no need to log in/log out or flip back and forth or anything since they're two different sites and you can automatically remain logged in on different accounts on both. 5. FS archives on LJ will remain up, of course! But why are we moving? The basic, overarching reason: the direction LJ seems to be taking is one toward Facebook and away from a classic blogging system, and they have a long history (think years, not months) of not caring much about fandom in general even if we are a loyal, vocal part of their userbase. The platform is supposed to be for facilitating conversations and communities, and LJ's changes keep making that harder over here. From what I've seen of DW, they're doing that part of it right, at least. Think about it this way: a whole lot of fandom is already over on DW. And while there might still be more of us on LJ than DW right now in terms of numbers, it seems like DW is where blog-based fandom is slowly but steadily going. Every new change LJ makes to the commenting system is making it harder and harder for fandom to stay here. A whole lot of big RPs and a bunch of kink memes - everything that relies on comments, like FS - have moved over to DW already, and it doesn't seem like a trend that will ever stop, at this point. The main/immediate reasons (why now?) is that with LJ's new commenting system: A) I can't mod the place properly (a lot of it due to the comment changes detailed in point B below). Whether you're here for wank or trolling or what, the fact of the matter is that FS is not supposed to be a no-holds-barred anon comm - and if that's what you're looking for, you're in the wrong place to begin with. There's most certainly a difference between fandom wank and other sorts of wank, if the non-fandom, unmoderated kind is what you're looking for, ask around for links - there are plenty of other places to find that stuff. B) People can't read the place properly. When someone hits "...and 100 comments," they're stuck there expanding everything (with no idea whether they just expanded a single 100 comment thread, or 100 separate comment threads all at once). The alternative they have is to open up a new tab for every thread they want to follow - but this really shouldn't be necessary. It takes a whole lot of usability away from the comm, especially on mobile devices. "It looks ugly/I personally dislike it/I don't like the people" is one thing but it's of lower priority when compared to "I can't load all this" "I can't tell what people are responding to" "I expanded 100 comments full of surprise .gifs to see where the 'new reply' was and it wasn't anywhere near my own thread" - that makes basic usability really difficult for you guys. The whole point is easy discussion: and this is why FS will never move to somewhere like Tumblr even with something like Disqus (covered below). Tumblr is bad for that - and LJ is going downhill. What DW has (by default) that LJ doesn't: comment subject lines comment previews easily navigable comment trees comments viewable by everyone (no disappearing comment glitches while logged out) expanding comments for everyone, not just paid users (FS has expand for everyone as a paid comm, but on DW no real money would have to keep going into it) more usable interface in general (no dragging you to the top of the screen to post a new comment, et cetera) faster loading times The list keeps getting longer with each LJ release. This shouldn't be happening. Working around LJ to make all this available and to undo all the things that LJ has done is probably possible, but the point is that shouldn't be necessary either. And with all the changes that keep happening, who knows when workarounds will cease to work? But why not Tumblr + Disqus? While Disqus was meant to add commenting ability to pages with no comment functionality, it's obvious that it was created as an add-on and not meant to be the core part of any large discussion site. For small personal blogs, it seems to work fine. For an FS post with about 1000 comments? Not so much. It's not the functionality that's the problem with Tumblr + Disqus: it's the sheer scale. Can comments happen? Yes - but: if you want an example of a site using Disqus, look at the the company's blog (this post has around 600 comments: FS on a slow day). you have to load the entire page at once (or have it limited so that you have to hit "load more" to see more threads, which all then load at once) there's absolutely no auto collapse or expand feature at all (this can be done manually but only after loading everything first anyway) you can't link to individual threads or comments there are no parent/thread buttons so with long threads, it's hard to tell who replied to who comments do not support general html/embedding (images/video can be uploaded or linked, but only as clickable thumbnails) comments can't be locked/organized before the post goes up It looks nice on their corporate blog! But for FS's purposes, it's worse than LJ at this point. But why not a poll? Because with the changes LJ is making, FS is starting to lose its fundamental purpose. I understand that the platform shift is a major change, and that some people will be unhappy about this. But it's not about deciding where FS will be hosted or simply a matter of convenience any more. DW seems to be the best platform right now to house FS as FS: "a secret comm with semi-moderated fandom discussion with easy user interactivity and communication being a huge and fundamental part of the whole." When staying on LJ starts taking away from that, convenience and aesthetics unfortunately takes a backseat to "the whole intended point." But why don't you just get more mods? I VOLUNTEER! And I appreciate that, I really do! But here's the explanation I gave to somebody before: "[T]here are plenty of people willing, sure, but willing doesn't necessarily mean dedicated/capable/fair. Of course they might be! I'm sure some are, it's not like it's incredibly hard or anything. But I also find lots of issues arise when a comm has multiple mods - personal drama, disagreements between mod decisions, timezone issues, people dividing workloads then assuming that since other people are there, they can just ask someone else to cover if they're busy, right? resulting in the others playing emergency patch-up instead of having been ready for it (it's not their day, why should they be?), cliqueish stuff, et cetera. (FS has had multiple mods before. It's actually easier just doing everything alone.)" All of the above is sort of especially important when it comes to comms dealing with wanky subjects (like most secret comms), and the thing is - it's not that I'm incapable of handling it alone. The volume of conversation isn't the problem - the usability of LJ itself and actually accessing that volume of conversation is the problem. On top of that, "more mods" wouldn't really solve any of the other usability/readability problems for readers in section B of why we're moving. But FS will die! While I honestly don't think that will happen, it's won't say it's an impossibility. What I can say is that even if it does, I'll probably still be there 'til the end. I've been doing this for over five years, every single day, and I can say it's absolutely no problem to me updating daily, whether there are 100 secrets in a day or 10, or 5. I remember back when it was five, and the comm had 10 watchers - it's not really about the numbers. This was never about popularity or whatever in the first place - actually, honestly, it was about trolling everybody. "Man, imagine the wank if there was LJ Secret for fandom? WE SHOULD DO IT." But then it exploded and turned into something a whole lot bigger which took way more time and effort to maintain - but I don't regret that a bit. Beyond all the petty wank, FS has provided entertainment for hundreds of people on a daily basis, served as an indirect news feed about everything going on in tons of different LJ fandoms, spawned a whole lot of spin-off comms of its own - and you guys have connected people, inspired them, educated them, made friends, saved lives - That's pretty good, I'd say. Besides, if FS goes to DW and dies, then well, that leaves a nice gap here on LJ for another fandom comm to fill, doesn't it? And if one does pop up that's better than everything else, I'd probably come follow it. So... A collection of useful links! FS on Dreamwidth OpenID Guide (for those who want to comment to DW with their LJ accounts) **Note: It's not mentioned, but you CAN upload icons to OpenIDs! Just log in and upload them like you usually would, you get up to 15. Example!** General Guide to DW for LJ users All Dreamwidth Guides Dreamwidth FAQs And as for what you can do to help - just two things. 1. Come along - if you like. 2. Spread the word! If you have more questions about the move, feel free to throw them my way! The decision to move has already been made, but anything other than that, or anything regarding that - ask away. Can't promise I can respond to everything, but I'll be watching this post for sure. Move Date: Saturday, June 2nd Hope to see you then! ETA: One of the first things I do want to do when FS moves over is an FS friending meme - for DW. Even if they don't use DW as a blog, people can re-add their LJ friends/find new interesting people over there! ETA2: FSDW RSS feed for those who prefer that option! ETA3: !! Whoever bought FS a paid account on DW, thank you! Info on: Paid Accounts | Paid Communities That's pretty awesome. In light of that, I'm opening up membership - members still won't be able to post, but you guys can get the community benefits! ETA4: Test post, come spam!

Comments

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

wow.

Kind of confused by all the people saying "most people don't want the move and now f!s is going to die because SO MANY PEOPLE AREN'T GOING OVER THERE"

um the overwhelming majority of responders here are in favor and have said they WILL make the move. Are you just, refusing to read? I think there will be plenty of people on the DW comm.

Also, kind of related? it's funny that people don't want to go to DW because it's so empty...I mean I guess I get that, but the only way to fix that is to add people, especially via important and high-activity comms. Like this one. Every site starts somewhere. And DW seems to be way more functional than LJ so why not give it our support at least in terms of activity? LJ stopped listening to users and the changes are likely only going to get worse.

(P.S. - you can be active on both sites dontcha know. Getting a DW account doesn't mean giving up LJ.)

[(Anonymous)]

My hating Dreamwidth has nothing to do with the site design. The fandom community there is obnoxious on so many levels, and I'd rather have no activity at all than what I see over at that shithole.

[(Anonymous)]

...Well then you can just not come along and ignore FSDW! That'd solve everyone's problems, right?

[(Anonymous)]

And...that's exactly what I plan on doing. Your point?

[(Anonymous)]

No other point, really, bar that. Is there a reason you have to make it clear to everyone why you hate everything on DW though? Honestly curious! It seems like you're working yourself up a lot, since the move seems to be inevitable you could just start ignoring it from now on and all.

[(Anonymous)]

*shrug* I see everyone talking about how DW is ~so great~ and acting like there's no legit reason at all to prefer staying on LJ, and I find it irritating since there are so many reasons to not want to move to DW. Unless Tech decides to put a "DON'T COMMENT UNLESS YOU SUPPORT THE MOVE" rule on this post, I'm going to express that opinion.

And TBH, "it seems like you're working yourself up a lot" comes off as concern-trolling, JSYK.

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

That is a legit complaint, though I haven't really spent any time on DW (yet) so I can't say one way or the other.

That is not, however, what my comment was talking about...at all.

So, good for you, I guess?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm genuinely curious, actually. I don't dispute that you have legitimate reasons to not want to go to DW or to dislike DW. I've seen several comments about disliking the culture over on DW, comments about disliking the founders of DW, and now this one about fandom being obnoxious over on DW. Which are all fine reasons to dislike DW, if not very detailed reasons. I don't know if all of those comments were yours, but now I'm really curious about exactly how people are obnoxious and how the culture sucks over there. You've obviously had a very different experience with DW than I have. Granted, I don't spend a lot of time on DW, so it's entirely likely that I've missed things. I'm not saying you're wrong, and I'm not trying to start wank. I actually want to know why.

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

Seconding this. I haven't spent any time over there yet and I'm curious.

[(Anonymous)]

DW started as an epic flounce from a couple of LJ programmers (aka "we're gonna build our own blogging service! With blackjack! And hookers!") for one thing, so it was born with an air of "we're not LJ and that alone makes us better." Up until LJ Release 88, accounts were not free. You had to pay for an account, or get an invite code from an existing (paid) user.

Because of this, the type of user the service attracts are those sick of LJ for whatever reason. And for many, that's because they view the fandom communities on LJ as too permissive of discussions that don't carry a Social Justice Warrior Seal of Approval (and how to obtain one is still unclear). From my experience, there's a pervasive sense of superiority because of why DW was started in the first place, and perpetuated by tightly controlling who could join it until very recently.

I actually have an account over there from when LJ Release 88 went live, but it's only a placeholder in case most of my friends or communities do move (and most that I associate with haven't, because they dislike the site's culture and design as well). Unless that mass exodus happens, I will stay on LJ because I like the people here.

[case]

Just popping in to say, I have no problem kicking SJWs out of FS if they deserve it.

SJ will probably always be a thing - especially in fandom/popular media, people will have opinions and social justice is certainly not a bad thing - but going SJ warrior about it (and there is a distinction we can all make, I think - you know, warriors are the kind that uses SJ as a tool to feel superior and bully others) will get threads frozen or deleted, etc.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, FS isn't an unmoderated free for all anon-comm - and that goes for SJWs as much as anybody else.

[(Anonymous)]

You can only kick them out if they comment with a name, and many of them don't. Since you're playing in sfd_anon's home field now, I'm wary that it's just going to get worse, to the point that you may have to constantly log IP addresses (which still won't help unless they've commented un-anon) or turn off anon commenting altogether if you don't want to freeze half the secret threads in every post. And then there's really no point to the community anymore.

[(Anonymous)]

Will you extend the same courtesy to the more rabid anti-SJ people, too? There's been a lot of bullying, baiting, and general wankery on their side as well recently, to the point where I'm starting to skip over comment threads for some of my fandoms anymore because people keep showing up and trying to provoke off-topic arguments.

[(Anonymous)]

Thank you for explaining. I appreciate getting your viewpoint on it. :)

[majorshipper]

Interesting view! I honestly didn't realize others saw it this way. I admit I wasn't around when DW was created, but from all the reading I've done, it seemed more like them creating a new site because they were already sick of LJ screwing over the userbase with really bad business choices(strikethrough? blackouts? the security issues after selling?). I will agree that DW is full of SJ, and thereby is full of SJWs, but they're not that hard to avoid, at least in my experience.

FWIW, I never saw the limited account feature as restrictive at all or as an attempt to try and only get the "right" kind of people. It was ridiculously easy to get codes to join, and the only reason they had that rule implemented was to prevent massive levels of bot account creation.

Of course, this is my impression from the back-posts I've read and my personal experience. Yours differs. But, yeah.

[(Anonymous)]

Just re: invites, they weren't strictly limited to paid accounts. Every new account is given some to start with and as someone who hasn't paid for an account there yet, there were periods when they would dish out invites for people to pass around. This hasn't happened since they turned off invites but ... yes, just wanted to point that out.

That said, I know what you mean about the "holier than thou" attitude that I have seen some strictly DW users (not so much the creators but that's my experience) and it's always something that's bothered me. As if being smug about using a different blogging platform and laughing at people for staying on LJ (and then backpedalling the moment friends call them out on it because oh no they're not laughing at you) is going to make people feel more inclined to move.

[(Anonymous)]

Just as a side note, LJ actually used a paid-or-invite system as well up until the end of 2003 (which I remember for a fact because they opened up account creation four days after I got my invite). And IIRC, they were both for the exact same reason - to keep a cap on the NUMBER of accounts, so the servers didn't have a meltdown.

As DW gets bigger, it'll most likely keep free account creation open permanently. It's already kept them open for far longer than initially planned (it was meant to revert back in January, but so many people were coming over from LJ that I guess they just decided to leave it open).

So yeah, it can be a bit SJW-y, but I really doubt the invite system was supposed to be this big... block out the undesirables thing.

[(Anonymous)]

Or you could, I don't know, just check FS on DW and stay with your less obnoxious fandoms on LJ... It doesn't have to be either or.

[vickyblueeyez.livejournal.com]

Communities are only as active as people make it. I try to crosspost my fics to the less active DW fandom comms when I remember just to get things going. People can make a place active. It's in their power to do so.

[raichu100.livejournal.com]

Agreed. :) this is basically what I was trying to say.

[(Anonymous)]

To be honest, I think there's basically one or two butthurt anons who keep posting all over the place about how OMG NOBODY IS GOING TO MOVE and BAWWW EVERYONE IS JUST WHINING ABOUT CHAAANGE and... they're probably the same anons who have been bitching about every change Techno has ever made to the comm and constantly harping about polls and freaked out over the posting time change...

Actually, they might not even be butthurt. They might just be complaining for the sake of trolling.

(I'm not saying every anon who isn't happy is butthurt or trolling, but there's definitely a lot of comments tossing around the same tired arguments...)

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not saying every anon who isn't happy is butthurt or trolling, but there's definitely a lot of comments tossing around the same tired arguments...

So your not saying that, except where you're totally implying it. Okay!

[(Anonymous)]

Annnnd, hello there butthurt trolling Anon.

[(Anonymous)]

Right back at'cha, cupcake!

[thedivinegoat.livejournal.com]

DW has a different culture to LJ, a lot of the fannish discussion happens across personal journals rather than in the communities, creating the impression that there's not much going on there if you don't know where to look.

The fannish circles I hang in over there are pretty active.