[ Officially moving to Dreamwidth! Announcement post. ]

[case]

FS is moving! So, as you may or may not have heard, due to these new comment changes on top of the old ones, FS will be shifting over to DW. I'm hoping to do it starting next Saturday. From then, the main posts will be over at the community on Dreamwidth. But don't panic yet! It's not all too different. Here's how it'll work: 0. There won't be any downtime. One post a day will continue! 1. The main post is on FS @ dreamwidth. Everything over there works pretty much the exactly same as it does over here on LJ, with the addition of a few important features (detailed below in the "why we're moving" section). 2. But don't worry, you won't miss your daily post even if you're sticking solely to LJ. I'll be updating FS @ LJ as well with a link to the post on DW. It'll be exactly what you see on every other FS post on the Recent Entries page (image #1 and a cut), except the cut will take you over to the main post over there. You'll still receive LJ notifications from LJFS and see when it updates on your friendlist and everything. You don't have to go anywhere! 3. Submissions posts will go up on DW, but since it's anon anyway, there's no need for you to make an account. If you are interested in making an account, it's still free, but it's not absolutely necessary. (For now/this week, keep using the LJ post. Everything in there will still go up next week after the move. All submissions posts after that will be on Dreamwidth, though.) 4. Comments will be over at DW, but openID is available and you can easily post with your LJID (info and links at the bottom of this post). Alternatively, if you have a DW account, you can remain logged into DW, just like with LJ - no need to log in/log out or flip back and forth or anything since they're two different sites and you can automatically remain logged in on different accounts on both. 5. FS archives on LJ will remain up, of course! But why are we moving? The basic, overarching reason: the direction LJ seems to be taking is one toward Facebook and away from a classic blogging system, and they have a long history (think years, not months) of not caring much about fandom in general even if we are a loyal, vocal part of their userbase. The platform is supposed to be for facilitating conversations and communities, and LJ's changes keep making that harder over here. From what I've seen of DW, they're doing that part of it right, at least. Think about it this way: a whole lot of fandom is already over on DW. And while there might still be more of us on LJ than DW right now in terms of numbers, it seems like DW is where blog-based fandom is slowly but steadily going. Every new change LJ makes to the commenting system is making it harder and harder for fandom to stay here. A whole lot of big RPs and a bunch of kink memes - everything that relies on comments, like FS - have moved over to DW already, and it doesn't seem like a trend that will ever stop, at this point. The main/immediate reasons (why now?) is that with LJ's new commenting system: A) I can't mod the place properly (a lot of it due to the comment changes detailed in point B below). Whether you're here for wank or trolling or what, the fact of the matter is that FS is not supposed to be a no-holds-barred anon comm - and if that's what you're looking for, you're in the wrong place to begin with. There's most certainly a difference between fandom wank and other sorts of wank, if the non-fandom, unmoderated kind is what you're looking for, ask around for links - there are plenty of other places to find that stuff. B) People can't read the place properly. When someone hits "...and 100 comments," they're stuck there expanding everything (with no idea whether they just expanded a single 100 comment thread, or 100 separate comment threads all at once). The alternative they have is to open up a new tab for every thread they want to follow - but this really shouldn't be necessary. It takes a whole lot of usability away from the comm, especially on mobile devices. "It looks ugly/I personally dislike it/I don't like the people" is one thing but it's of lower priority when compared to "I can't load all this" "I can't tell what people are responding to" "I expanded 100 comments full of surprise .gifs to see where the 'new reply' was and it wasn't anywhere near my own thread" - that makes basic usability really difficult for you guys. The whole point is easy discussion: and this is why FS will never move to somewhere like Tumblr even with something like Disqus (covered below). Tumblr is bad for that - and LJ is going downhill. What DW has (by default) that LJ doesn't: comment subject lines comment previews easily navigable comment trees comments viewable by everyone (no disappearing comment glitches while logged out) expanding comments for everyone, not just paid users (FS has expand for everyone as a paid comm, but on DW no real money would have to keep going into it) more usable interface in general (no dragging you to the top of the screen to post a new comment, et cetera) faster loading times The list keeps getting longer with each LJ release. This shouldn't be happening. Working around LJ to make all this available and to undo all the things that LJ has done is probably possible, but the point is that shouldn't be necessary either. And with all the changes that keep happening, who knows when workarounds will cease to work? But why not Tumblr + Disqus? While Disqus was meant to add commenting ability to pages with no comment functionality, it's obvious that it was created as an add-on and not meant to be the core part of any large discussion site. For small personal blogs, it seems to work fine. For an FS post with about 1000 comments? Not so much. It's not the functionality that's the problem with Tumblr + Disqus: it's the sheer scale. Can comments happen? Yes - but: if you want an example of a site using Disqus, look at the the company's blog (this post has around 600 comments: FS on a slow day). you have to load the entire page at once (or have it limited so that you have to hit "load more" to see more threads, which all then load at once) there's absolutely no auto collapse or expand feature at all (this can be done manually but only after loading everything first anyway) you can't link to individual threads or comments there are no parent/thread buttons so with long threads, it's hard to tell who replied to who comments do not support general html/embedding (images/video can be uploaded or linked, but only as clickable thumbnails) comments can't be locked/organized before the post goes up It looks nice on their corporate blog! But for FS's purposes, it's worse than LJ at this point. But why not a poll? Because with the changes LJ is making, FS is starting to lose its fundamental purpose. I understand that the platform shift is a major change, and that some people will be unhappy about this. But it's not about deciding where FS will be hosted or simply a matter of convenience any more. DW seems to be the best platform right now to house FS as FS: "a secret comm with semi-moderated fandom discussion with easy user interactivity and communication being a huge and fundamental part of the whole." When staying on LJ starts taking away from that, convenience and aesthetics unfortunately takes a backseat to "the whole intended point." But why don't you just get more mods? I VOLUNTEER! And I appreciate that, I really do! But here's the explanation I gave to somebody before: "[T]here are plenty of people willing, sure, but willing doesn't necessarily mean dedicated/capable/fair. Of course they might be! I'm sure some are, it's not like it's incredibly hard or anything. But I also find lots of issues arise when a comm has multiple mods - personal drama, disagreements between mod decisions, timezone issues, people dividing workloads then assuming that since other people are there, they can just ask someone else to cover if they're busy, right? resulting in the others playing emergency patch-up instead of having been ready for it (it's not their day, why should they be?), cliqueish stuff, et cetera. (FS has had multiple mods before. It's actually easier just doing everything alone.)" All of the above is sort of especially important when it comes to comms dealing with wanky subjects (like most secret comms), and the thing is - it's not that I'm incapable of handling it alone. The volume of conversation isn't the problem - the usability of LJ itself and actually accessing that volume of conversation is the problem. On top of that, "more mods" wouldn't really solve any of the other usability/readability problems for readers in section B of why we're moving. But FS will die! While I honestly don't think that will happen, it's won't say it's an impossibility. What I can say is that even if it does, I'll probably still be there 'til the end. I've been doing this for over five years, every single day, and I can say it's absolutely no problem to me updating daily, whether there are 100 secrets in a day or 10, or 5. I remember back when it was five, and the comm had 10 watchers - it's not really about the numbers. This was never about popularity or whatever in the first place - actually, honestly, it was about trolling everybody. "Man, imagine the wank if there was LJ Secret for fandom? WE SHOULD DO IT." But then it exploded and turned into something a whole lot bigger which took way more time and effort to maintain - but I don't regret that a bit. Beyond all the petty wank, FS has provided entertainment for hundreds of people on a daily basis, served as an indirect news feed about everything going on in tons of different LJ fandoms, spawned a whole lot of spin-off comms of its own - and you guys have connected people, inspired them, educated them, made friends, saved lives - That's pretty good, I'd say. Besides, if FS goes to DW and dies, then well, that leaves a nice gap here on LJ for another fandom comm to fill, doesn't it? And if one does pop up that's better than everything else, I'd probably come follow it. So... A collection of useful links! FS on Dreamwidth OpenID Guide (for those who want to comment to DW with their LJ accounts) **Note: It's not mentioned, but you CAN upload icons to OpenIDs! Just log in and upload them like you usually would, you get up to 15. Example!** General Guide to DW for LJ users All Dreamwidth Guides Dreamwidth FAQs And as for what you can do to help - just two things. 1. Come along - if you like. 2. Spread the word! If you have more questions about the move, feel free to throw them my way! The decision to move has already been made, but anything other than that, or anything regarding that - ask away. Can't promise I can respond to everything, but I'll be watching this post for sure. Move Date: Saturday, June 2nd Hope to see you then! ETA: One of the first things I do want to do when FS moves over is an FS friending meme - for DW. Even if they don't use DW as a blog, people can re-add their LJ friends/find new interesting people over there! ETA2: FSDW RSS feed for those who prefer that option! ETA3: !! Whoever bought FS a paid account on DW, thank you! Info on: Paid Accounts | Paid Communities That's pretty awesome. In light of that, I'm opening up membership - members still won't be able to post, but you guys can get the community benefits! ETA4: Test post, come spam!

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

If the comment pages are a problem, there are (ironically?) some workarounds for those as well: http://userstyles.org/styles/browse/dreamwidth

[(Anonymous)]

And why should they have to work around a site they can't use, but not ~Technophile~?

Mmm, love the smell of double standards in the morning.

[(Anonymous)]

uhhhhhhhh because most of the DW ones are purely aesthetic and to make it smoother but don't really affect the comment format themselves? so they're more like reskins that make things less clunky, they work around the 'ugly' part of things

in fs' case it seems more a functionality issue than a looks issue, though, so that's pretty different, I would think

[(Anonymous)]

Switching to certain S2 styles would've solved all of that. And it's easier than moving to an entirely different site.

For me, every single style DW has is eye-bleedingly awful, and the ones that are less hideous just happen to be migraine-inducing.

[(Anonymous)]

IIRC FS did do that? People preferred 'new LJ' to 'workaround LJ' during that time, dunno where the post for that one went, though. And as far as ease of moving goes, it looks like Tech's already set everything up and since people can always comment anon, that doesn't change anything.

It might actually be easier to comment anon there, since you could be logged into LJ then just comment there however without having to select the 'comment anonymously' thing, come to think of it.

A lot of people also seem to be finding the current LJ comment styles eye-bleeding and migraine inducing. Don't think they'd be lying about that, either, so it's probably one of those 'unfortunately can't make a site that'd please everyone' things.

And wait, are you talking about the site styles? Because that's what the userstyles are for editing, and for the personal journal styles it's not hard to just port on livejournal layouts like Flexible Squares and stuff.

[(Anonymous)]

Point is I shouldn't have to edit the hell out of the site skin or my journal style so it isn't hideous or migraine-inducing. And if that rule's good for LJ, it should be good for DW, too.

[(Anonymous)]

You really shouldn't have to, I definitely agree with you on that. But it seems like way MORE people here are having trouble with LJ's comment systems and finding them bad and having to do a lot of workarounds for them than there are people who are having problems with DW styles.

Ideally it'd be great if there was a style that was fine for everyone. But there isn't, and more people are finding LJ harder to work with recently. I'm not saying LJ has been harder to work with or anything like that, just that more people here seem to be finding it so, and as a result they're being pretty negative about it. That's why they're opting to move, I think. They think they shouldn't have to edit stuff so that it isn't hideous to them, so they'd be taking their things with them and packing.

There's no one solution that's going to please everyone, so it seems like the best that can be afforded is compromise. Like- move the site to the platform where the least people will have to edit the hell out of the skins and styles, as opposed to keeping FS here and doing more and more workarounds on a platform that a good number of its users are seeing as buggy. To me, that actually seems like a pretty logical move. It may not be good, and it'll definitely hurt some people- like you- but I can't say it's without reason.

[(Anonymous)]

Then when I say I don't want to move to DW because the site layouts are either hideous or give me headaches, people would stop suggesting all the ways I can edit them. Because that just smacks of "we're too important to do that on LJ, but you should do that so you can follow us to DW =D"

[(Anonymous)]

Problem: You find DW aesthetically unappealing.
Potential Solution: Edit styles to make site pleasing to look at
Rate of Success: 50%

Problem: Many users find LJ's commenting system awkward/entirely unusable
Potential Solution: Suck it up and get over yourselves
Rate of Success: 0%

[(Anonymous)]

Potential solution: switch to S2
Rate of Success: 100%

Problem: you keep insisting other people do what you refuse to, and that makes you a hypocrite.

[(Anonymous)]

What about the people who were already using S2 who are unable to load pages since the change?

[(Anonymous)]

I'm talking about F!S switching to S2. If Tech doesn't have to do it because he shouldn't have to work around LJ's changes, then nobody should be telling anyone else to work around Dreamwidth's layout in order to follow the community. This isn't hard, I promise.

[(Anonymous)]

Do you have a personal grudge against technophile? Did he steal your lunch money?

[(Anonymous)]

Different anon here, I'm just wondering, would you be okay with things if people weren't telling you to work around or providing ways of doing that? Because it looks like they're offering those things in general to people who do want to or would be willing to make the shift. Like, more of a 'well, if you still want to participate on DW have problems (and you're willing to try to fix them to participate), then these are some things you could do, since the shift seems permanent' than a 'you don't want to participate? NO, YOU SHOULD DO THIS INSTEAD AND PARTICIPATE'.

The first seems more open than the second, if that makes sense, more 'well come or don't come, but if you come and have problems here are fixes', while the second is more 'you don't want to come? you SHOULD want to come, HERE IS HOW TO' which is really sort of harsh.

Or maybe I'm just seeing it wrong? I could be, too, correct me if I am.

[(Anonymous)]

but S2 is borked up since the change for lots of users including communities. every new lj release creates more problems then lj tells everyone to suck it up and deal with it. staying here users would continue to have to find ways to fix things around every change. in the long term that's a lot of fixes it's not a one time thing. on dw this wouldn't happen or that's what i understood was the point

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, I can see why that'd be annoying, when you put it like that. Being told repeatedly that you can change something that you don't want to change would probably bug me as well.

It's likely that the people who suggest things at you don't see it that way, though. I doubt they think of themselves as 'too important to do it on LJ'; it doesn't seem to be a pride thing with the people commenting as much as them not really seeing that you're personally feeling that you're now in the same situation that they were being put in themselves by LJ not too long ago.

[(Anonymous)]

I'd like to think that, but there's such an air of superiority about moving to DW (hell, people on the last poll were telling others to "educate themselves" about it, as if it was an SJ cause or something) that I can't help but think a lot of it is "WE shouldn't have to do this, but why on earth would anyone else not want to in order to follow us?"

[(Anonymous)]

So, if I'm understanding you correctly, then it's more the way people are responding to the move and what they expect other people to feel about it than the move itself that's bugging you?

[(Anonymous)]

Pretty much. It's not the move (I've lost a lot of interest in F!S lately, so I'm barely even following it here) so much as the attitude toward the people who aren't doing a happy dance over it.

[(Anonymous)]

That's pretty unfortunate. I can see where trying to make the move as smooth as possible for everyone who does want to follow and who doesn't mind making a tweaks is useful, but forcing anything on anyone isn't really very good.

I guess people do have legitimate reasons to want to leave, and that there are also people who'd not mind leaving and making tweaks- if they're willing to do that, it's ok, right? But then there're also people who'd rather not move and who have good reasons to do so as well.

I'd actually see the 'here are tweaks and stuff' things as being targeted more towards the second group than the third. And maybe I'm something of an idealist, but I really don't think that anyone would really want to force people to do things they weren't comfortable with. And the reasons you've given for not wanting to move sound pretty good to me, as well.

Do you think it'd help if you just explained things to people like you did to me? I have to admit, from your earlier posts, I thought you were against the move and couldn't figure out why or for what reason. That seemed to be the main topic of discussion, rather than what you actually do seem to take issue with, which is the way people are feeling about it. If I'd caught you earlier in the thread, I probably wouldn't have realised either.

[(Anonymous)]

nayrt

maybe because, idk, Technophile has to do this shit every day and be accountable to several hundred people in order to keep this comm going? I'd like him to be able to keep doing his job.

[(Anonymous)]

Aaaaaand Tech could've easily solved all of the comm's problems by switching to The Boxesr on S2. But he's apparently too important for a few mouse clicks.

[(Anonymous)]

na

But...I thought he already tried switching it over to custom comments or whatever and most everyone hated it, so he switched it back over to the default. I think I'm missing something here.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

If he's not even going to take a poll before moving the community, why should he care what anyone thinks of the layout as long as it's functional?

[(Anonymous)]

from his post it sort of seems like because if lj keeps making pretty frequent changes to their comment system like they've been doing he's probably going to have to keep using more / new workarounds to keep the layout functional over time

so overall if functionality / amount of work is his concern then dreamwidth is the best for that