Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-09-20 07:02 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-09-20 07:02 pm
[ SECRET POST #2088 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2088 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 021 secrets from Secret Submission Post #298.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
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(Anonymous) 2012-09-21 04:07 am (UTC)(link)no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-09-21 04:19 am (UTC)(link)If they want a story with more female representation, then they can write it themselves. Authors should not be at the mercy of any social agenda.
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(Anonymous) 2012-09-21 04:28 am (UTC)(link)I disagree with you there. I think authors should be held accountable. Many writers actually have a social agenda when they're writing, and I think writers should definitely be called out when their writing is problematic.
If an author writes a sci-fi novel where men and women are fighting against some alien species, and the author says that women are fighting just as much as men, then I'm going to be miffed if not a single female fighter has a line of dialogue. I'm not the OP. I don't think you need an equal gender proportion, but I do think writers need to be called out on for erasure or how they deal with a subject matter.
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(Anonymous) 2012-09-21 04:37 am (UTC)(link)Yes some things that are written can be a problem, but we can choose not to read it, or to stop reading it.
Everything can been seen as being 'problematic', depending on who is viewing it.
If I'm writing a love story with two men, I should not be forced to change one of those men, into a woman.
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(Anonymous) 2012-09-21 04:48 am (UTC)(link)You're using that example again. I NEVER said you should.
If people want to read stories just for enjoyment, then good for them. That's their prerogative. As for myself, I read with a critical eye. I think about what works and what doesn't work. I think the written word is meant to be critiqued.
It's an easy example to use, but think about Twilight. It's a problematic book, and Edward's relationship with Bella is very abusive. Did I enjoy it when I read it? Sure. But I also liked reading essays pointing out the issues with the story.
If something offends me, I don't just stop reading. I ask why it offends me. I ask why it's problematic. You act like I'm attacking you for writing an m/m story. I'm not. I just disagree with your opinion that we shouldn't delve into the social implications of what we read.
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(Anonymous) 2012-09-21 05:00 am (UTC)(link)...and that's just fine. However that's not how everyone reads a story.
I used the example I did to make a point. Say I had a m/f relationship and due to that being, well, problematic in some circles, I was being persuaded to change the relationship to m/m.
Would that be seen as good change, or a bad change.
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(Anonymous) 2012-09-21 11:54 pm (UTC)(link)Oh, you're a superior sort of reader. Well, lah di da.
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I used the taxes analogy last night, but I'll repeat it. Stories that come across like the author was trying to tally up the proportions of female-to-male characters are about as interesting to read as it is to do my taxes.
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On top of that, I can't think of any books off the top of my head without a setting based reason that would not work with a female character. I'm really curious if you had any examples in mind? (I should also maybe clarify here that I'm speaking of original fiction, not fanfiction.)
As a little girl, I didn't have a whole lot of options in the SFF YA genre for me. Almost everything, with the exception of Tamora Pierce and Diane Duane and a handful of other authors, was focused on boys, where if there happened to be a girl, she was basically a reward for the boy being the hero. There is thankfully quite a lot more representation than that now, but the idea that it affects nobody if a significant amount of writers focus on male characters to the exclusion of women is not true. It does affect people.
On an individual basis, I don't say that authors should go by a checklist. That way lies tokenism. But I would encourage active thought and questions -- "Does this character need to be [x]? What if they were [y] or [z]?" and see how it feels. I say that this needs to be active thought because we live in a society where straight white able-bodied male is the default -- and I have seriously lost track of the number of women writers I have met that have said that it was a revelation to them that they could write about women.
I personally find even if I don't end up changing the character, I know more about them. I know more about why they are, and because I have also been thinking about how their background and lives would be affected by such changes, I know more about their lives. I have ended up with characters that the changes I thought about making worked out to have a much more complex and compelling story.
I think the thing is not to go into it with the attitude of "must check every tickybox" -- because some stories call for different things, and characters can be vocal about who and what they are. I've had a character that I would really have preferred to change their gender because I find writing male dom triggery but really like fem dom -- but nope, he's male, and a bunch of other planned stuff in the story wouldn't work, either.
I'm sure there are authors out there that are checklisting, and that's not the right way to do it. But, just because some authors do it wrong doesn't mean that there aren't good reasons to think actively about what decisions you are making about your story and characters. :)
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As for stories that would only work with male characters, though, you know you actually did get me thinking. I had a lot of examples, but then I realized that, yes, they were all setting-related as to the reason why that was. They were all war stories, or took place at a boy's school, or focused simply on one character who was male. So I guess you're right about that.
And, for your suggestion, that's actually a good idea. That's how some of my characters have ended up differently from their initial conception, but most of the time it doesn't work for gender. Again, that's probably related to my other issues, but eh.
I'm not talking about stories that happen to include a diverse character cast. What I'm talking about are some stories where it's like the author was literally running down a checklist about what sorts they need to include now. And yes, it does tend to read kind of like a tax form. :P Not saying that's how your work reads, just that that's how some people do it. And maybe they're not trying to use a checklist at all, but their writing comes off as stilted, like they're trying to follow a guide.
I have to say, though, I really respect you for working through and writing a character that could trigger you. I'm not really there yet, so it's why I usually stick to fanfiction for now. :3
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I'm really sorry that you went through all that with the bullying. Oddly, the majority of my bad experiences have been with women but I am much more fearful of men, go figure. But as I have major panic attacks anytime a guy raises his voice, and difficulty reading stories where a male character is described as yelling, I can sorta sympathize there. At that point, you need to do what's best for your mental health. There's stuff I don't read because in order to get through it I'd need to have a bottle of lozarepam on hand. >_<
If it is something that you are ever able to work through with a therapist, I would encourage, but I know all too well how that is just not an option in many cases (we just got insurance again this year after being w/o for 5yrs).
The stilted characters... well... having been in crit groups and such, I've seen a lot of stilted, and a lot of "technically well written but totally blah" fiction. I think it's a stage of learning how to write, and I've definitely seen writers produce some awesome characters that are "like them", but not totally think things through for diverse characters. I think maybe what the issue is here is that some not very skilled writers confuse "this character is [x minority]" for characterization -- as if that alone is enough to build a character. I have seen that for things other than minorities, though. (Like the feisty tough chick in so many fantasy novels where the fact that she is spunky is treated as her defining characteristic and enough to carry the character. Sorry, no.)
I can't actually say I am so actively working on that project. It is more, poke at it every few months or so until I get triggered and have to stop. It's a premise I love, though. It is BDSM fantasy erotica; the hero is Death, leader of a group of people, the Deathriders, who deliver souls to the afterlife, and the heroine is the granddaughter of a Deathrider who begged mortality in order to be with the woman he loved. Death and this guy had a relationship, but, hey, people have enough issues with relationships lasting years, much less centuries. He granted his love's wish, and the Deathrider's granddaughter found stories passed down through generations. She is dying of terminal cancer and asks to become a Deathrider. Death is taken off guard, because the ethics of allowing somebody to escape death by joining their group is just problematic, but chooses to set terms that he thinks that she will never ever accept as a vocally feminist woman -- that she become his, in all things, for a year and a day. Except, she agrees, and the story is about her finding her own power in submission. (This may not make a lot of sense if you are not familiar with BDSM but the sub is the one with the power and a lot of people find it freeing.)
But, it's male dom, and... triggery. So as much as I love it, *pokity poke hide* :-\