[ SECRET POST #2088 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2088 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 021 secrets from Secret Submission Post #298.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[saku]

bless this comment. none of my characters are just "words on paper" to me. just writing "new words" is not how most good authors write.

my characters are who they are, and that's that. i don't know how else to explain it. i guess it's either something you understand or don't.

[(Anonymous)]

I seriously doubt you know how "most good authors write." The best writers I know realize that their characters are tools. They serve the function of telling a story.

To me, my characters are words on paper. Yes, I think about them and what I want them to be like, but they don't truly exist until they are integrated into the story. And yes, if you want to change a character, then you will have to write "new words." If a character does not function the way I want him or her to, then I have to re-write things involving them whether it be description, dialogue, or reaction.

I think the problem is that people become overly attached to their characters and start acting as if their characters have distinct thoughts and feelings when, in reality, they are just a construction of the author.

[saku]

you don't have to be rude to make a point, just fyi. in any case, i am well aware that characters act as tools by which a story is portrayed. but characters are not just tools to everybody, that is my point. for some of us, they are something more than that, and those characters generally fall into the "found" category rather than the "created" one. my characters are not universally of the same flexibility and origin.

i am glad you have your own subjective opinion about your own characters, that is genuinely great, but it's not an objective, universal experience that we all share, which is something i think you are failing to understand. nobody is saying characters can't change or are their own person completely.

words have no artistic meaning without emotion or care. technical writing doesn't make a good creative story. implying that just "writing some words" is all it takes to change something in a creative work is, dare i say, oversimplifying the process for a lot of us who put more feeling into our work. you seem to be trying to apply your methods to those of us who are rejecting your statements and assuming we think the products of our own mind have gained actual sentience, which isn't true.

you are right that our characters are our construction, no matter how the character comes to us. but, by being an extension of ourselves, that makes it even more difficult to change aspects of a character willy nilly when they (in other words, us directly) don't fit well with the proposed changes. changes can't always be forced like that; for some of us, not at all. if you can change things forcefully and still put heart into your work, then that's sincerely great for you, and i am happy you can do that, but i personally can't. my heart lies in a story that feels right and good to me, and that structure and soul is destroyed when i attempt to make changes i never truly wanted.

ETA: i think going out of your comfort zone with your own characters is actually pretty good exercise, like trying to write a drabble where one of your characters is genderswapped or has a major personality change or even a disability of some sort. it helps you grow as a writer and in this case using your character temporarily as an exercise tool is beneficial. but there's a big difference between momentarily altering your character for the sake of practice and permanently installing these "uncomfortable" changes that aren't your ideals for that specific character. it's not that i'm avoiding a challenge - i love to challenge my writing abilities! - it's just that i don't find it necessary to change something about my character when it's not something i want to happen. if i want my character to be a boy then that's the end of that conflict.

you said that if your character doesn't function the way you want that character to function, you rewrite and edit things. i think we all do this to characters who don't function the way we want. but when they do function the way we want? awesome! what's the point in changing a well-functioning character because some random on the internet is judging me for having less girls than boys in my stories?

[veronica_rich]

How many books have you sold?

[(Anonymous)]

This just sounds limiting, honestly. If you're good enough at understanding human psychology, at constructing a believable psychological profile for any given character, you should be able to change any facet of your character without a problem. Simply tweak, or sometimes, completely re-write, that psychological profile (this profile does not have to be literally written out, mind. Mine are just in my head.) Then they are not "just words on paper" in the negative way you seem to mean. They are very believable human beings.

It's just like yourself... If somebody understands themself really well, they should be able to make educated guesses (and believable, realistic ones) as to how they might be different if they were another race, another gender, if they'd been orphans, if they'd been abused or not been abused, etc...

I know not everybody analyzes them in this way. But I think any writer should be able to construct a realistic set of reactions and personality changes based on any given event. That's what you're doing when writing a story, after all? So why is it suddenly impossible when applied to a specific character?

I'm not saying you should change your characters for anybody else. You shouldn't. I just fundamentally disagree that what you're describing is a superior form of writing, or what most good authors do.

The better and more experienced I get with writing, the more changeable my characters have become. Most writers have characters that appear to them. How else would we start writing, or be inspired to do so? It's just that a lot of us don't see these characters as unchangeable. They came to us in a split second. Surely it will be rare for my brain to create something better, and more realistic, in a split second, than when given more time, right? Characters often improve a lot when you research things and think about them and make your own decisions in a more thoughtful way than your knee-jerk brain activity can.

I simply feel you may be limiting yourself by seeing these characters as fully formed people that you can't change unless it feels right. Your brain creates what it is comfortable with, what it knows. What "feels right" again represents what you are comfortable with, what you know. Some of the best writing happens when we do something that takes us out of our comfort zone, but this is rarely going to "feel right" immediately or groove well with our split-second initial character creation. Conversely, it's often when authors start talking about how characters have minds of their own, is often when their writing goes down hill, when they don't take appropriate criticism. See: Anne Rice. It's possible what you're doing works for you but in general I highly, highly highly recommend against it.

[(Anonymous)]

Look, even if they are our own characters and not somebody else's, some actions (or changes) would lead to OOC-ness or outright character derailment.
That's why we (I hope you don't mind me including you, Saku) keep saying that some changes aren't possible.

[saku]

yeah, pretty much. i'm not going to have a character act... well, out of character simply because some folks seem to think that these drastic and random changes without reason are beneficial to the story, because in my eyes, they aren't. changes that work with the character, the plot and the setting, etc. are the ones that are worth keeping if they don't flow then they're likely not good changes, unless you're writing a story that is meant to be erratic.

[saku]

the bottom line is that if it doesn't feel right then it'snot meant to be. i'm not limiting myself at all. it's my style and through it i find really strong, well-rounded and dynamic characters.

this:
"I know not everybody analyzes them in this way. But I think any writer should be able to construct a realistic set of reactions and personality changes based on any given event. That's what you're doing when writing a story, after all? So why is it suddenly impossible when applied to a specific character?"
is not true! like i said before, challenging yourself is cardinal to improving as a writer. if you write a certain event in which your character changes in some way, then that's cool, but i wouldn't force it.
let me give you an example. i have a character who's an android but who is programmed to learn, rather than to already know. this makes him more human than other androids in his era. he's very close to a person who happens to be human. i currently can't decide what fate i like best for them (i have a few brainstormed) so i like to flesh out each one just to see where it takes my characters and their story. in a few of these futures, when the human dies, the android's personality changes drastically. this is a conditional change that feels natural. it's his response to losing a friend. i didn't force it, it's just what feels right when i place myself in his shoes. so i don't think i'm limiting myself at all by just considering scenarios that feel like, hey, this is how my character would react or become.

people replying to me don't seem to understand that when i say i change my characters often, i mean it. i'm not limited by my lack of desire to change a character unnecessarily.