[ SECRET POST #2099 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2099 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 085 secrets from Secret Submission Post #300.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - pretty much unreadable ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I... don't see what I said that implied that I thought Israel was perfect, or that necessitated a catalog of its faults?

In general, I try to stay out of the Israel / Palestine issue, because it seems to me like an issue that's entirely insoluble. It's just a tragedy from beginning to end, and there's no solution that's not shitty and kind of terrible. But believe me when I say that I understand that Israel is deeply flawed and does a lot of questionable things as a state.

My point, I guess, was twofold. On the one hand, I think that support for Israel is "just politics" as much as anti-Israeli sentiment is. You can't say that one side is just politics and the other isn't. I don't think that being pro-Israeli is a personal fault because I don't think that personal politics, except in the most extreme of cases, are something to regard as a personal fault... I agree that opposition to Israel is not anti-Semitic, but at the same time, you can't seriously say that support for Israel is a sin.

My second point, I think - and this is the point that was actually in response to something that someone had said - was that supporting Israel isn't necessarily the same as supporting everything Israel does, and that being Jewish does not automatically make one a supporter of everything Israel does. IE, being Jewish does not oblige you to support all the noxious shit Israel does that you so helpfully pointed out. Which I think is broadly a point you would agree with.

This is a tricky fucking issue man, I'm just trying to be reasonable here and say that, although I don't necessarily think it's right to support everything that Israel does, I also don't think it's necessarily right to regard someone's political beliefs as a personal fault.

[(Anonymous)]

Then again, I don't regard "supporting Israel" as a personal sin which makes it okay to hate someone, so maybe I'm just not suited to this conversation? I mean, using someone's political beliefs as grounds for hating them personally is not usually justified, to me, unless they're literal Nazis or something.

You're implying that there is a dissonance between "literal Nazis" and the stuff Israel pulls on a daily basis. The NSDAP was fueled on hatred for the humiliation other countries had served them, many of its early policies were based in revenge for the same as well as class differences, and it eventually indulged in religious and racial-based genocide and apartheid. There's not a huge amount of difference between your average "literal Nazi" and the Israeli government.

[(Anonymous)]

the nazis slaughtered 12 million people

Like, no, sorry, Israel is not literal Nazis and the Israel - Palestine situation is not comparable to Germany under the Third Reich, you're being fucking ridiculous, stop it. Nothing that Israel does is as bad as what Nazi Germany did and it's kind of ridiculous to even suggest at, and I say that without supporting what Israel is doing. Even if you can draw comparisons between them, the scale is so totally different, and even the content of what they're doing is so totally different, that it's difficult to take you seriously. Israel should stop doing what they're doing, but they're not Nazis. The Nazis had a profound belief that race was the complete determining factor for all of history, and that the superiority of the German race over all others was both a fact and something which must be pursued through any means, even the indiscriminate slaughter of anyone who opposed them. The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is a complex conflict rooted in ethnic strife and the desire of one people for a homeland which has ramified and developed in a huge number of unsavory ways.

Seriously, fuck you for making this comparison. Try to be a reasonable human being. I can't even put into words - I'm not even angry at you, I'm fucking disappointed that you would try to make this argument. It's just really god-damned dumb. When you do this, you bring everyone down. You bring the whole fucking discourse down. You make having a rational conversation about this impossible.

"You know who liked ice cream? HITLER!"

[(Anonymous)]

The comparison was within the framework of what anon said. They could only be against someone if they were a "literal Nazi". Well, there isn't a huge degree of difference. The scale isn't important: the reasoning behind the actions is.

[(Anonymous)]

See, the thing is? Genocidal people actually tend to commit genocide. The fact that you, or the other anon, can claim that the Israeli government is informed by a genocidal ideology ignores the fact that there are actual genocides happening in the world right now, by governments with far fewer resources than Israel has at its disposal. What the actual fuck?

[(Anonymous)]

the reasoning of the actions is still completely different. it only looks similar in the most abstracted, wide-angle view you can take. it only looks similar if you say "they are both doing unsavory things based on race." but that's the most simplistic possible analysis of either the NSDAP or the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and so calling them equal on the basis of that comparison is just ridiculous, because the picture - if you analyze it in greater detail - is not at all the same.

The fascist, racist ideology of the National Socialists is just not all that similar to Zionism. They both believe in the importance of race, but there are profoundly important ways in which they differ. And I'm not saying that Israel isn't racist - it frequently is - but a racist is not a racist is not a racist; they are bad in different ways and condemnable to different extents. Comparing the two is ridiculous.

To speak to the original point: the Israeli regime may be racist. I think it is. But supporting the Israeli regime is not in and of itself racist. And it seems wrong to me to use that as a personal attack on someone. It seems to me important that we preserve the idea that people may disagree with each other without thereby being in any way less human or less good. Except in the most extreme cases, I think it is important that we be able to respect those with whom we disagree. And so I'm saying: supporting Israel is a difference of politics. It is not a personal fault. It is a political position in the same way that supporting the Palestinians is a political position.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, systematically killing 12 million people is exactly the same as what the Israeli government is doing.

and it eventually indulged in religious and racial-based genocide

They're so good at genocide, in fact, that the Palestinian population keeps growing! And the only Ethnic cleansing that's taken place in Israel was...well, removing Jews from Gaza.

For the record? You're the reason why many moderates have trouble taking anti-Israeli rhetoric seriously. You lack any perspective, and clearly know fuckall about the subtleties of Middle-Eastern geopolitics beyond shallowly parroted talking points. I'm not saying that the thousands of Palestinian casualties are okay, but it's several orders of magnitude fewer casualties than there would be if Israelis were actually attempting genocide of any kind, or even using scorched-earth tactics like the US did in WW2 against Germany.

[(Anonymous)]

So you wouldn't have a problem with someone saying that the Rwandan genocide and the lack of intervention by Western powers was justified? Because it's just politics right?

I find that there are some political positions that are very hard to ignore, mostly because those positions bleed over into other beliefs a person holds. I wasn't saying that I think it's a "personal sin" to support Israel, just that it colors my opinion of a person. If someone waxes golden on apartheid South Africa or the Confederacy, it makes me very uncomfortable because they have, at some level, accepted the bad with the good and bad far outweighs the good.

Israel, as you said, is tricky. Hell, I'm American and I try to keep quiet about my opinion on Israel because most people think anti-Israel=anti-Jewish. I just think the government and a number of its citizens have proven to be incredibly shitty.

[(Anonymous)]

I wouldn't have a personal problem with someone saying that the lack of Western intervention in the Rwandan genocide was justified. I disagree, but that's a fundamentally political matter.

And particularly in the case of Israel which is such a god-damned complicated issue. To look at an issue that's as complicated as that, and then to say that anyone who believes one thing or another is guilty of a personal fault, just seems so strange to me. It doesn't seem to match up to the reality of how complex the situation is.

[(Anonymous)]

Nah. You should probably keep quiet about your opinion of Israel because, when you voice it, it looks like you're a parrot who has no personal stake in the situation at all -- has probably never stepped foot near Israel, Gaza or the West Bank -- but feel like you're an authority on the moral and political complexities of the conflict, anyway.