Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-10-01 06:20 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-10-01 06:20 pm
[ SECRET POST #2099 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2099 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 085 secrets from Secret Submission Post #300.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 2 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - pretty much unreadable ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
TW question about rape
(Anonymous) 2012-10-02 04:24 am (UTC)(link)If someone lies and pretends to be someone else, it's rape by deception, right? Like somebody pretending to be a spouse in the dark but not really being them or whatever.
Is it rape if someone lies and says they love someone just to sleep with them? Tbh that probably happens a lot, people either exaggerating their amount of affection or outright lying in order to get people into a relationship and then sex.
...idk to me the latter situation sounds like somebody is being a huge manipulative dick but not really a rapist because consent is given to the person knowing who the person is even if they're a manipulative liar. Whereas the former situation is more like they had no chance to refuse consent because they had no idea who it was and assumed the rapist was someone they'd consented to have sex with.
tl;dr someone says they love someone else, and the two of them have sex. The first person is lying about it. Is that rape?
Re: TW question about rape
(Anonymous) 2012-10-02 04:43 am (UTC)(link)As for your second example (lying about being in love), I don't think that is rape.
Some might disagree and consider impersonating the kind of person an individual wants to have sex with and impersonating a specific person that the individual wants to have sex with/has consented to have sex with to be equally bad. For example, I remember a case in Israel concerning whether lying about your religion to get sex from a person was rape. It's hard to say where to draw the line between the kind of manipulation that bypasses consent and the kind that is just a jerk move that people have some responsibility to watch out for.
Re: TW question about rape
I mean, say you tell some lit nerd you love Shakespeare, when actually you hate Shakespeare, and the person agrees to sleep with you even though he wouldn't sleep with someone who told him she hates Shakespeare because he's a lit nerd who doesn't date girls who hate Shakespeare because he thinks people who hate Shakespeare are plebes who aren't worth his time. You really can't call that rape either, even though it's kind of a dick move. Calling it rape is just...ridiculous.
And to be honest, it IS a value judgement. The reason rape is a crime and is considered a horrible thing is because it matters to people, not because people have some magic button that goes off when a person gets raped and automatically gives them mental trauma, like an STD or something. If something matters, it's a crime. If something genuinely doesn't matter, then it's not a crime.
Now, that's not simple and it's extremely subjective and there's any number of things people can fight about in that claim, but if it WAS simple and objective, and any fool could figure out what matters and what doesn't, then no one would ever have any trouble whatsoever writing laws and arguing philosophy. Which is not true, because humans have spent the last few thousand years of civilization pulling their fucking hair out every single day trying to figure out what matters and what doesn't so that they can write laws and argue philosophy.
But that's unhelpful, so I guess here's what I would personally distinguish between rape-by-deception and lying about loving someone: lying about your character doesn't negate consent because well, everyone lies or forgets about something, people aren't telepaths and they don't regurgitate every fact about themselves before having sex, just like they don't do it before having a conversation or shaking hands or hugging. The type and scope of the lie can determine whether the lie is manipulative and assholish or trivial and irrelevant, but misrepresenting your character doesn't count as rape.
On the other hand, pretending to have a specific established character (i.e., that of another real-life person) does count as rape because the person who's being tricked thinks they're consenting to a completely different real person that they have specific knowledge of in their minds, not just a person who's exactly the same person they had sex with but who just so happens to be in love with them (or hates Shakespeare) rather than not in love with them (or likes Shakespeare). Big difference between "oh, wait, I thought this person was in love with me" and "oh, wait, I thought this person was my spouse". One's about a characteristic, the other's about their entire identity.
wow that got really rambly, even by my standards O_o
Re: TW question about rape
(Anonymous) 2012-10-02 05:21 am (UTC)(link)fraud (either because the accused (1) fraudulently convinces the alleged victim that they are married, or (2) fraudulently convinces the alleged victim that the sexual act serves a "professional" purpose even though it does no such thing). This might be the case if, for example, you are a therapist and convince your patient that having sex with you might help resolve his/her sexual dysfunction issues
There are only a few jurisdictions that recognize rape by deception as a crime, but it does seem tied to either misrepresenting themselves (pretending to be someone else) or misrepresenting the act. I very much doubt this would fall under either of those. An argument could be made, but the issue of how someone feels would be awfully hard to legally define.
Re: TW question about rape
One thing I might see as a gray area -- still not rape but possibly worse than other types of lying-for-sex -- is when the lie is, "I'm not married." How would people here categorize lying about not being married or in a similar exclusive relationship in order to have sex with someone who would never willingly participate in someone's infidelity?