[ SECRET POST #2103 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2103 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

01.


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02.
[Derren Brown - Trick of the Mind]


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03.


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04.
[Quantum Leap]


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05.


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06.
[Necessary Roughness]


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07. http://imageshack.us/a/img811/3861/tumblrm9siebsjna1rym8lc.jpg
[nudity which is possibly sexual? / illustrated]


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08.


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09.
[Team Starkid]


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10.
[Teen Wolf]


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11.
[Evangelion]


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12.
[High School of the Dead]


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13.


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14.


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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ---- ]












15. [SPOILERS for Teen Wolf]



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16. [SPOILERS for Everything Burns/Journey Into Mystery]



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17. [SPOILERS for To Boldly Flee]



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18. [SPOILERS for Lord of the Rings]



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19. [SPOILERS for Homestuck]



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[ -----TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ---- ]













20. [WARNING for rape]



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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #300.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[intrigueing]

It's not that simple. It's most likely true (certainly true in the books) and it's a bitterly ironic, tragic state of affairs and I LOVE that fact, the way your actions have consequences you can't foresee, but:

a) that doesn't mean Sam should have magically seen into the future and somehow known that if he treated Gollum kindly, Gollum would've redeemed himself. He had no way to know that. He wasn't fair to Gollum, and that came back to bite him just like a good many unfair actions come back to bite people in the reverse of the Androcles' Lion effect, but he's human, he makes mistakes, he does bad things with good intentions (protecting Frodo), and b) how about a great big NOPE for implying that it's someone else's fault for why an evil person doesn't redeem themselves. Even if circumstances would have changed that person's behavior, it's no one else's fault if they're evil. No one's.

Very few people are irredeemably evil right from birth, pretty much every giant scumbag in the world was once a perfectly innocent kid and has been shaped by his or her life to become the scumbag s/he is today, but that does NOT mean other people should be blamed for the horrible things they do. They should be blamed, or in Gollum's very specific case, the ring should be blamed for corrupting him (and btw, the speed with which he was corrupted isn't a ringing endorsement of his character. It took a couple of decades and an extended period of stress and psychological hell to corrupt Frodo, it took one glimpse to corrupt Smeagol). If he had the potential to become good, it's not Sam's responsibility to somehow know that and turn him good.

Now, feeling guilty for indirectly making him stay bad and feeling bad about treating him unfairly? Wondering what could have happened if he'd just been nice to him? Certainly, but Gollum's redemption wasn't on him and he can't be outright blamed for its failure.

The whole reason that subplot is so good and so tragic is that it's highly unlikely that they would have ever done anything differently: Gollum's personal failings meant he wouldn't have turned good without different circumstances, Sam's personal failings meant he wouldn't have acted differently unless he knew that, and he couldn't have known that. Sometimes, life is just plain unfair and some things can't be blamed on anyone except random luck.

+100

[(Anonymous)]

And also, I think - that Gollum would not have fallen, had Sam not treated him as he did, does not absolve Gollum of responsibility for what he did.

[ryttu3k]

Can I just say 'this' to your entire comment? Sam is my favourite character. And yes, I can also acknowledge that he treated Smeagol badly. Which isn't a bad thing in a literary sense, because well-rounded characters are MEANT to have flaws. Sam's were narrow-mindedness and distrust. That doesn't make him a 'stupid fat Hobbit', that makes him a character.

And yeah, Smeagol fell FAST. It took seventeen years for Frodo to be corrupted, and Sam quite literally shook it off in a matter of minutes. He was only the second one after Bilbo to willingly hand it to someone else. He's loyal, he's courageous, and the entire quest would have failed if it wasn't for him. Certainly, Frodo never would have made it on his own - it wouldn't have been any more successful if just Frodo and Smeagol had been travelling together, I think. Without Sam being a moderating presence, I do think Gollum would have overriden Smeagol in the end, even if, at the same time, Sam was a bit of an antagonising force towards him.

If Sam had been nicer? Yeah, things may have been easier. But from his perspective, this was a creature who he had heard horror stories about, who he knew was still drawn to the ring, and who had stalked them from... where was it, from Moria? He had NO WAY of knowing that Smeagol had a chance of redemption, since every piece of available evidence said that he wasn't to be trusted. And Sam's key characteristic, his ultimate goal, was to protect Frodo, no matter what.

...Anyway. Sorry, intrigueing, for tl;dring in my reply to you! It sort of turned into a reply to the OP of the secret, too. ...I have a lot of feelings about Sam?

[gabzillaz]

IA with this but

It took a couple of decades

decades? o_o

[(Anonymous)]

Maybe they're referring to the passage of time (in the books, it's about 17 years) when Gandalf leaves Frodo the ring and returns?

Although I don't recall Frodo ever really using it or doing anything with it during that time.

[gabzillaz]

They were. I didn't remember because I haven't read the books in a looong time.

[intrigueing]

Well, he got the ring when he was 33, and then when he was 50, spent a couple years trekking to Mount Doom. I was going on the book's timeline. Now that I think of it, there wasn't nearly that long a gap in the movie timeline IIRC, but still -- a LOT longer than it took Smeagol.

[gabzillaz]

Oh, I see. It's been ages since I read the book so I didn't remember XD

[ryttu3k]

It was a bit under half a year, actually - they left shortly after Frodo's birthday (September 22nd), and the ring went into the fire on March 25th. The round trip takes just over a year, though - they're close to the Shire when 6th October rolls around, and Frodo experiences pains from the attack at Weathertop at its one-year anniversary.

So, Frodo gains the ring on September 22nd, 1301, they depart the Shire on... I want to say September 24th, 3018, and the ring is destroyed on March 25th, 3019. About seventeen and a half years. 'Decades' isn't quite there.

The movie compressed it a lot, unfortunately - I guess it was so the cast could be introduced during the party, since in the book, Pippin, Merry, and Sam were all of twelve (Pippin), eighteen (Sam), and somewhere in between (Merry - I don't recall how old he was in the book, was it thirty-three?), and it would have been awkward using the same actors. (Frodo would have been fine, due to the ring's effects!)

[cakemage]

♥ to your entire comment.

[loki]

The whole reason that subplot is so good and so tragic is that it's highly unlikely that they would have ever done anything differently:
Everything you said, and exactly this.

[herongale]

"but he's human, he makes mistakes"

Proudfeet!!!!

Sorry, that is my instinctual grumpy response to the "he's human" comment because of course he's not human, he's a proud and perfect hobbit. Human indeed! /huffs like a huffy hobbit

But, er. That's just me being picky since of course I get your overall point, and totally totally agree. <333