Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-10-09 06:49 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-10-09 06:49 pm
[ SECRET POST #2107 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2107 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
01.
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02.
[gravity falls]
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03.
[Kuroko no Basket]
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04.
[World of Warcraft]
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05.
[Batman: Arkham City]
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06.
[Blake's 7]
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07.
[Sherlock (2002)]
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08.
[Beelzebub]
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09.
[Kuroko no Basuke]
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10.
[Tonari no Kaibutsu-kun]
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11.
[Spec Ops: The Line]
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12.
[Supernatural]
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13.
[Star Trek: Deep Space Nine]
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14.
[Legend of Korra]
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15.
[Community]
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16.
[The Good Guy]
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17.
[Journey Into Mystery 2011]
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18.
[Rune Factory 3]
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19.
[Journey]
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20.
[South Park]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 03 pages, 065 secrets from Secret Submission Post #301.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?
So I have no idea why you even replied to me asking why you shouldn't write a character who is feminine in canon as feminine. It has nothing to do what I said. I replied to your assertion that writing characters OOC "does not equal annoying" because that assertion is absurd. Of course it's annoying. It's not the character anymore.
Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?
Just think about how much more often people rant about "ukefication" than "semefication." Yeah, they rant about both, but it's always the ukes that get mentioned most often and first. Why is that? To me, it's because devaluing femininity -- especially finding femininity in men disgusting or laughable -- is a centuries-old tradition.
That's one of the many reasons I so enjoy writing about characters like Starscream. To have feminine men be not laughingstocks, but characters in their own right. To say to the people who find that icky that no, all forms of gender expression are valid and none should be shamed.
But the moment you say something like that, you're accused of being:
1) Heterosexual (um, hahahahhahahahahha no)
2) Wanting a "female character stand-in" because of 1).
An-wha? As if there aren't thousands of rich variations of campy/femme/effeminate male queerness, and as if those people aren't important to queer history. Nope nope, anyone who likes writing about feminine men is trying to straightify Gayland. Woo!
Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?
Yes, you did.
From the comment of yours that I responded to:
not IC in one's opinion... does not equal annoying
Which is absurd.
You brought those terms in.
No, I didn't. You did. I don't give two shits about Starscream or your views on embattled femininity; you made a claim that is ridiculous. It is this claim I responded to. Stop inventing strawmen about "canonically feminine" characters and address what I (and you) actually said, or don't bother.
Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?
Now if someone made Megatron really feminine? I'd probably think that was weird as hell and OOC. (I find it weird as hell when he's portrayed as a bottom, also, but that's my personal thing.) But why would that matter? I have a back button. And, to put a finer point on the point I was trying to express, someone portraying the character in a way I don't get is not necessarily someone writing bad fic. Some of the best writers in my fandom write characters in ways I see as much more about their (rich, awesome) headcanon than about sticking to canon. To me that's not IC -- but it may be better than IC.
As far as your claims that I don't mean what I'm saying, I really have no way to respond to those. I'd encourage you to have a look at some of my comments to prior conversations on this topic. If you were to do that, I think you'd find that every time I've commented on this, I've brought up similar concerns about devaluation of femininity, because devaluation of femininity has long been an issue that concerns me. If I didn't see fandom's focus on this particular trope as troubling, I wouldn't bother to talk about it so much, I don't think.
I don't know if you agree with me about the devaluation of femininity or not. Maybe you don't, and that's where this is coming from. But I hope you are willing to cool down enough to recognize that that is the point I am making, and that is why this issue is important to me, and why I wade into the fray knowing my opinions are quite unpopular.
I know reality and fantasy are not the same, but I've seen the real effects of devaluing femininity on partners and friends of mine, male and female, too often and too much for this issue not to bother me personally. Therefore, I say so.
I'd ask you not to be insulted, but that's pretty pointless, and honestly I don't think caring about stereotypes that I feel ultimately have to do with people I care about is something I need to apologize for.
So I will only say this: that I think you were inferring something I wasn't saying from one piece of my comment, and missing the larger point I had in mind because that little bit was the part that matters to you, or the part that stuck out most to you.
I will say that I've been a bit rude to you, and I apologize for that. But I also feel that your claiming I don't care about an issue you can easily research my history of bringing up is also rude. I hope you will reconsider that outburst and take it back, whatever we disagree on and however deeply we do.
Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?
What "claims"? Where did I say this? I haven't said anything about your motivations whatsoever. I pointed out you weren't addressing, but were rather dodging, my point - which you were. You said it was not annoying for a character to be written OOC. I said I found that absurd. That is literally all this discussion has been about on my end.
your claiming I don't care about an issue
I never said that. I said I don't care. My comment is right above you. To quote:
I don't give two shits about...
So what "outburst" do I need to "take back" exactly? A sentence you evidently can't be bothered to read?
But, since you've (finally) addressed the only thing I actually said, here's where I disagree:
I might think (I don't, personally, but some do) the queeny portrayal is over-exaggerated and find it (a little?) OOC. Well, I could go on a crusade, I guess. Or I could go "Not how I see him, moving on now." My point was I think the latter is healthier and less wanky.
"Going on a crusade" is not the same as "find annoying". In your initial post, you said, literally, that having a character presented in a way you find OOC is not annoying. If one is annoyed, they might (though probably not) "go on a crusade" or, or perhaps write a journal entry about it, or, more likely, just think "not how I see him" and click the back button. Which seems to be exactly what you'd do when confronted with an OOC portrayal you find annoying:
I'd probably think that was weird as hell and OOC. (I find it weird as hell when he's portrayed as a bottom, also, but that's my personal thing.) But why would that matter? I have a back button.
So, to sum: I haven't insulted you, I haven't made any claims about what you care about (only what I care about, and I'm pretty sure I'm right about that), and you evidently get annoyed with OOC characterizations and do what everyone else does when they find characterizations OOC, which is fine, because your original claim was absurd. Of course it's annoying. You came to read about Megatron, not some bizarre other robot character who is Megatron in name only. I said nothing (and repeatedly emphasized that this was not about) characters who are "canonically feminine".
My suggestion would be to read what someone who disagrees with you is saying (and apparently your own comments with the whole "I never used the words IC/OOC" when you did, directly) much more closely before responding to them at length with non sequiturs and false accusations.
Re: Ukefication and Exclusive Bottoming in porny fanfic?
I do think, though, that if you don't give two shits, it's really odd that you keep responding. We're talking completely past one another here, because we're talking about two different things.
Your issue seems to be irritation that you feel I misused a word ("annoying.") I can see why you think that, but again, I think you're missing the forest for the trees (and "not giving two shits" about the forest -- which is okay, but it means you're responding to wording and not to substance.)
I do think I used the word "annoying" sloppily. What I meant, though, and what I do still hold to, is this:
Yes, I do think that when we see characters portrayed in ways we don't like, it can be irritating. What I don't think is that this irritation really warrants so much complaining.
I used to not like portrayals of Megatron as a bottom at all. I don't know that I'd say I thought it was "ukefication" -- my opinion has always been that it's "people writing about their kink for seeing powerful characters dominated even when that makes no sense/is OOC"fication. Which used to annoy me.
I still think it's kind of OOC. What's changed is how much I care. I read more of it. It wasn't consistent with my take on the character and the vast majority of it wasn't hot to me at all -- I like Megatron's characterization to be consistent, as I see it. But -- funny thing. The fics were written well! There were explanations for why this would happen! Some of them made sense even to me! Sometimes when they didn't., rather than putting my dukes up, I found myself thinking "Eh, it's no big deal, it's how they work their kink into their story."
"Eh, it's no big deal, it's how they work their kink into their story."
....
"Eh, it's no big deal, it's how they work their kink into their story."
Oh, wow!
Oh, shit.
Did I start liking it? Well, no. Pretty much the only reason I read it is because I keep a database of fic about the pairing and it didn't make sense to exclude it. So I have to read it to make sure I'm including good (within reason) fic.
But is it annoying?
No, not in that "I can't stand that you do this" way. Why not?
Because what the vast majority of us who write smutty fic are doing is... writing about, and to, our kinks.
We're writing things that turn us on. That sometimes means exaggerating traits that aren't all that evident in canon. It sometimes means coming up with explanations (like "Megatron has to want some downtime where he loses control") that aren't actually shown in canon. And why?
So we can write the stuff we fap to!
That's why I don't see getting terribly upset. In some cases people severely warp characters and write badly, but in quite a lot of other cases, writers tweak -- even the amazingly good ones, in my opinion -- because they're writing their version of things.
And if it's porn, their version is very often what gets them off. Or what gets their friends off.
I don't see a reason to get bent out of shape about that. That's what I meant by "I don't see why that's annoying."
Was it a misuse of the term annoying? Yeah, I can see where it might have been. I didn't mean to imply that having any kind of irritated reaction is somehow not okay. I meant "I don't see why this warrants sustained annoyance."
Because I don't. I used to see red about Bottom!tron no matter what.
And while I do think I had reasons, I also realized it was, shocker of shockers, a complete waste of energy.