[ SECRET POST #2112 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2112 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 05 pages, 102 secrets from Secret Submission Post #302.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 1 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I'm just saying we can't ignore patterns. I'm saying that when you express distaste for something that a lot of other people have expressed similar distaste for, you're not doing it in a vacuum. There's a lot of baggage that comes with devaluing female characters in this context (given that Uhura wank is pretty much all I know about nu Trek fandom), and I don't think it's wrong to talk about that context when someone makes a secret like this.

You're also saying we can't ignore patterns. You're saying it about patterns of representation. And while obviously there are patterns of representation, I don't think that "conditioning" is something that should be accepted as an excuse in a context like fandom, where there are so many opportunities to rethink our assumptions. There are plenty of great female characters in media of many kinds, and the fact that women "are given the short end of the stick" doesn't negate that or excuse the kind of fan response that writes tons of fix-it fic about men while ignoring or erasing women. It seems like you're trying to say the creators have to change before the fans do, and I think that's pretty much the opposite of true. (And note, I'm not saying every fan must write about women, the same way I hope you're not saying that every fan is conditioned to distrust women.)

[sarnath]

But that means you actually have to know the pattern. All you know about this person is what they want for three characters in one canon.

That's what I mean by assuming. There's also the fact that wanting to break up a pairing doesn't mean hating one of them. It's possible to love a character and ship them with no one.

I don't think it's wrong to talk about that context when someone makes a secret like this.

It depends on how one does it. Assigning specific motives to individuals one doesn't know is not a great way.

I don't think that "conditioning" is something that should be accepted as an excuse

Neither do I. It's a possible reason for some of the reactions, nothing else (actually, it only really works for the unexamined hate diatribes; more thought-out criticism tends to deal with the writing and characterisation). It still makes me uncomfortable going even that far, actually, because it's assuming that people aren't analysing their actions properly, and that's rather insulting. But I've done it myself, occasionally, and I know where it comes from.

Looking at patterns in writing is one thing; it's there, we have the words and the images on the screen to analyse. But patterns in individuals? It would mean we'd have to know someone really, really well.

I mean, even the tendency to dismiss female characters for the reasons I mentioned above isn't something I'd actually accuse someone of that I was having a discussion with. Because I couldn't know, and it's an insult, not an argument. And it's about the person I'm having the discussion with, not the subject matter (the canon).

it seems like you're trying to say the creators have to change before the fans do

Yes. Because I think fanfic has very little (if any) impact on what producers actually decide. Not to mention that online fanfic-writing fandom is a rather small part of the audience.

I mean, take Star trek again. Did the enormous, decades old and actually famous (comparably) K/S fandom make he writers and producers of the film pair Kirk and Spock together? Isn't the whole Star Trek universe still a canon completely devoid of anything other than straight romance? didn't they pair one half of the most famous slash pairing ever (the one that coined the phrase, even) with a woman?

Why do you think that it would matter who people do or don't pair up in their fanfic?