Case (![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
case) wrote in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png)
fandomsecrets2012-10-18 06:49 pm
case) wrote in fandomsecrets2012-10-18 06:49 pm
[ SECRET POST #2116 ]
⌈ Secret Post #2116 ⌋
Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.
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[Deacon Frost, Blade]
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[Legend of Korra]
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[Luke Wilson]
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[Transformers: Shattered Glass]
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[marvel comics]
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[Pan's Labyrinth]
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[The Walking Dead]
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[Jackass]
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[Avengers]
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Notes:
Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 020 secrets from Secret Submission Post #302.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-19 05:57 am (UTC)(link)I think a lot of the narrative about it has focused on basically punishing Billy for being upset over things that, by and large, were not his fault. Billy didn't get his teammates killed - while they died as a result of his initial actions (choosing to try to fix things himself), he didn't kill them, he couldn't have predicted their deaths, and they came with him willingly. Doom killed Cassie, and Iron Lad The Eternally Irritating destroyed Vision.
Admittedly, yes, Billy has some growing up to do, like most people. He's what, 16 when the series starts? A lot of being sixteen is being kind of selfish (but I wouldn't even really label Billy that, either - he can be a little selfish, but he's not a selfish person, if you get my meaning). But I don't think it's like they paint it, that it's terrible that he doesn't realize that he's somehow (I don't know how at all, frankly) ~better off~ than everybody else and stop being upset about it and idk, defer to them all the time or something? Stop doing anything? Stop being depressed? I don't know what people want him to do here.
But he is being narratively punished -- oh, let's make sure he ~remembers what he's got~ because clearly having an identity crisis, being treated like you're radioactive by most everyone you love and have ever looked up to, trying desperately to figure out your life, being painted with the same brush as your mother just for existing, having/experiencing depression etc., are not problems at all because he still has parents and someone else doesn't. And that is really shitty and it's basically the creators playing Tragedy Olympics - the plot must be driven by Billy fucking up because clearly not enough awful shit has happened to him.
Not to mention, Billy fucking up or doing something somehow wrong or that he shouldn't do has been the basis of A WHOLE LOT of Young Avengers plots already, so it's getting kind of old.
And I especially think it's wrong because it's not really so much that Billy failed, in the original story, to acknowledge other people's problems so much as the creators did - they had the option to spend more time on the other characters and dealing with the shit they went through, but they chose not to. They don't even especially linger on the emotional effects of what happened to Billy until he falls into a depression at the very end of Children's Crusade. So it feels a little unfair here.
And having it be and be labeled a "Hank Pym style" screwup he's gonna make freaks me out. Because Pym deserved to have bad shit happen to him - he was an abuser and a complete asshole. Billy... isn't. So yeah.
no subject
He was deemed by everybody not entirely responsible for his actions, and paid for them anyway. Saying he deserved to have bad shit happen to him when he was seriously mentally ill at the time is kind of icky, ya know?
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-19 10:05 am (UTC)(link)I don't really think mental illness is an excuse to hurt people (and I say this as someone with severe MI issues). Admittedly, I'm not as familiar with his older core comics rendition - the version I'm more familiar with (and angry/bitter/enraged towards) is his Ultimates portrayal, wherein whatever MI issues he has in the core canon are not present and he is an unapologetic, chronic abuser who has been abusing Jan since college and who tries to murder her. So yeah.
Anyone who says Ultimates!Pym doesn't deserve every bad thing this universe has to offer wasn't paying attention.
no subject
He took years and years of work to get back on a firm mental footing and reputation again. I'm no fan of the character, I think he's self absorbed and boring, but I don't think "Like Hank Pym" is the insult you make it out to be.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-19 12:32 pm (UTC)(link)I think it's an insult when you compare a grown man who made some truly terrible decisions, hit his wife, and tried to kill his friends to a sixteen year old boy whose only crimes are perhaps being a little bit selfish and trying to understand who he is - during the course of which he killed no one, and arguably hasn't even really done anything wrong. idk.
(I do like Hank on Earth's Mightiest Heroes though, lol.)
no subject
The only terrible decision he actually made was building Ultron, which worked out poorly for everyone, but name me a Marvel scientist who has not made an evil robot by accident! LOL.
A sixteen year old boy who is one of the most powerful mutants on the planet, and treats his powers like a toy have the time. A sixteen year old boy who went against the advice of pretty much everyone on the planet, including the co-leader of his own team, and oh, look, it ended badly. Two of his team mates are dead. He does bare some responsibility for that. If he hadn't gone after Wanda (and what are his birth parents, chopped liver?), if he hadn't antagonised Doom, if he hadn't decided that non-consentially repowering all the mutants ever was a great idea, that wouldn't have happened.
I'm glad they're actually going to deal with the fall out of that, indeed of making okaydokay fine. Eli quit the team over his guilt, I'm not saying Billy should do likewise, but, like unto Hank building Ultron, Billy needs to grow up a bit and realise that there are consequences for his actions.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-19 09:03 pm (UTC)(link)A sixteen year old boy who is one of the most powerful mutants on the planet, and treats his powers like a toy have the time. A sixteen year old boy who went against the advice of pretty much everyone on the planet, including the co-leader of his own team, and oh, look, it ended badly. Two of his team mates are dead. He does bare some responsibility for that.
This is what I was trying to get at with my comment up-thread. I don't think Billy should be dragged through the mud for because he is the WORST EVER for what he's done, but I don't think everyone should just write-off his actions simply because he's young or that he's suffered from depression. He didn't kill Cassie and Vision, but he did make decisions and take actions (against the advice of almost everyone) that lead to a series of events that contributed to their deaths. And I'm not a huge Hank Pym fan, tbh, but I don't see a problem with a loose comparison between the way that Billy sometimes takes his powers and the consequences of his actions for granted and Hank's serious misstep when it came to Ultron. I think Gillen was basically using that comparison to couch things in terms of original Avengers mythos, since the plans are to make the story arcs in the new book riffs on said mythos and the first story arc is a based specifically on the original Ultron storyline.
I actually trust Gillen to handle the new book and story lines really well, given what a great job he's done with JiM and his general track record for writing well-rounded, nuanced teenaged characters. He's honestly one of the only writers I would trust to be able to make something that isn't a retconned mess out of the aftermath of Children's Crusade. And like Children's Crusade or not, some major shit went down there, and it would be a disservice to the characters to just ignore it all. It makes me kind of sad that so many people are jumping all over Gillen for supposed crimes against characters when the book isn't even out yet. I mean, I know that the nature of fandom is to speculate and pick apart every little spoiler and detail they can get their hands on, and comics fandom can be especially brutal, but come on, guys. You can be apprehensive, but I don't get the point of actively deriding something you haven't even read yet.
no subject
I think the basis of the comparison is Character who made some dubious decisions in the past that led to Bad Things Happening, and now has to deal with the consequences. That seems pretty fair to me.
I haven't read much Gillen, a couple one shots and minis, but I'm cautiously optimistic about this book. I'm pretty bummed about Eli not being in it – he and Kate were my favourites – but the Point One and interviews look okay. If this level of fan warring keeps up though, it's gonna be a long three months.
no subject
(Anonymous) 2012-10-20 04:48 am (UTC)(link)I am crossing my fingers that Eli will show back up at some point or, at the very least, will get to be part of another title (or has he shown up anywhere else? I admit that I haven't been following super closely, so I might have missed something along the way). He's such a great character and I'd hate to see him fall by the wayside and be forgotten. It would be kind of a shame to let all of his development up to now go to waste, too. It's also kind of hard to imagine the team without his and Kate's constant bickering. It will be kind of interesting to see how him not being there affects the others, though, since he was one of the more pragmatic members of the group.
Have you read any of the new Hawkeye, btw? I'm kind of tempted to check it out because I love Kate, but I've heard some pretty mixed reviews, so I'm trying to decide if it's worth my time. Also not the biggest fan of Fraction, so...
Hopefully the bickering will level-off a bit between now and then. I'd rather if people were going to fight like this that they had something a bit more concrete than a few interviews and a truckload of conjecture to go on.
no subject
Eli hasn't been in anything since the last issue of CC, to my knowledge. I'm sure I could hear the squee across two continents and an ocean if he had. More than just his character development, and it's not like Billy was the only one with guilt issues after CC, the whole legacy of the first Captain America is just getting ditched now? Why the hell would they do that? I suspect Miss America will step into his cynical fighting with Kate spot on the team, but man. I'll miss Patriot.
I was just reading #3 when you commented, and laughing so hard the cat ran away. I didn't like Fraction's Iron Man at all, did like his Iron Fist, and I suspect this might be less ideal if I was a huge Clint fan, as the characterisation is... different. But the writing is razor sharp and witty as hell, and Aja makes me swoon. As of three issues, it's pretty fantastic.