[ SECRET POST #2133 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2133 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 04 pages, 083 secrets from Secret Submission Post #305.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - posted twice ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

DA

He's a numbers-cruncher to an extent that no human could ever comprehend, I imagine ("we are successful in seven"/"he can calculate the trajectory of 8000 moving objects" coming to mind first). I don't think he's bad, I think he just lives in a horrifyingly different world than the readers, or even most of the other Transformers. As such, his idea of "necessary casualties" is pretty strong. And since he basically is a calculator, he probably doesn't see what was wrong with the idea of a guilt-calculator.

But now he has an unfortunately wrong variable in all his calculations. That being "the Decepticons want to fight" when, in reality, they're just as sparksick of the entire thing as the Autobots.

[kamino_neko]

And since he basically is a calculator, he probably doesn't see what was wrong with the idea of a guilt-calculator.

I think we may be talking about two different things.

I'm talking about the part where he sent a group of mentally ill agents (at least one death seeker (albeit, one who was going find death regardless), one subject to violent psychotic episodes if deprived of his medication, two with various sorts of delusions that could (and did) lead to severe risk-taking behaviour) on a suicide mission to suppress evidence of war crimes.

Neither part of that is heroic, to my mind - in fact, both are downright villainous.

[(Anonymous)]

DA

From what I remember in both LSOTW and Bullets Prowl had a say only in recruiting Ironfist, while Rotorstorm, Pyro and Guzzle were in the Wreckers recruits rooster before that. And Kup was very much wanted back in the team by Springer.

I'm not trying to excuse Prowl for what he did in the end, destroying evidence, but he's not directly responsible for sending people to die (they wanted to join the goddamn Wreckers, even if they bought in the heroic narrative built around the team they knew the survival rate is pretty low. "Sometime your first day in the Wreckers is your last one too").

[kamino_neko]

Fair enough. The 'mentally ill agents' isn't my main objection (the 'covering up war crimes' part is), it just makes me even more uncomfortable with the situation. (Not that I could ever be comfortable with covering up war crimes 'for the greater good'. Just, you know, Kup's psychosis, Pyro's Primus Apotheosis, and Rotorstorm's...issues are an extra icing of 'ick' on the 'bad act' cake.)

[(Anonymous)]

I understand this, there's really no excuse for covering up the Autobots war crimes (and I really, really hope Ultra Magnus knew about the copy Verity had, and that was the reason he let Prowl have the other one even if he suspected he was going to destroy it, otherwise this would be horribly disappointing of him). I don't think Prowl falls under the trope of the "Designated hero" because nobody actually thinks he's a good person. And while he's good at working behind the scenes for a higher end, there must be someone like Optimus there to put some moral limits around.

Personally, I hope Prowl's storyline takes him lower and lower until he has to face the fact he has become way worse than a Decepticon (or what he thinks Decepticons are) and his mind eventually breaks. I believe he might still have the capacity to stop and understand that there are no real excuses for the things he's doing. Possibly.

[kamino_neko]

I don't think Prowl falls under the trope of the "Designated hero" because nobody actually thinks he's a good person.

Yeah, perhaps I could have worded that better. I agree he isn't a proper Designated Hero - like I said, Roberts et al seem to agree that Prowl's actions were Wrong, it's just that if they'd continued to present him as in the right after that, he would have slipped into the role.

I have, though, had an argument with a fan who thought that what Prowl did was a good thing (because if word of Flame etc's actions came out, then people would mistrust the Autobots, more than they do), which was mind-boggling since the story itself has been avoiding the idea quite well. Something of a fandom-only DH - since he's in the faction that's on the whole, the better one, he can't do wrong.

[(Anonymous)]

I see what you mean, and I think that's a general (and very interesting, in a way) problem related to the Autobots. After all the Transformers were born as a cartoon with a very simple, b&w background: Autobots = Good, Decepticons = Bad. When you try to build a more realistic and complex background to the war they fought it necessarily clashes with much of how the factions have been perceived. I've been reading complaints about how in Transformers Prime the viewers are repeatedly told the Autobots are the good ones, period, even when what they do is morally questionable (even if justifiable in a war situation). So I think there still are a lot of people who try and justify what they do as good even if it isn't (it might be argued it was a necessary evil). I have friends who are angry at how Roberts and Barber write because they think the Autobots are shown as the bad guys, while in truth we're only getting realistic and complex characters, and that clashes with the Eighties Transformers mythos they grew up with.

Elaborating a little more on Aequitas, I'm ok with "extreme times call for extreme measures." I should have explained myself better, before: I'm not furious and disappointed in Prowl for a tactical decision to retrieve and hide evidence of the Autobots war crimes in that specific moment. I'm angry because he chose to destroy that evidence, going against what to me is one of the two main moral differences between Autobots and Decepticons: the Autobots put their own war criminals under trial and condemn them, the Decepticons give them promotions (the other difference is the fact Decepticons would wipe off organic races, judging them inferior (see Fulcrum's speech before the DJD)). He might have reasoned that was the safest option, but in truth it was an act of cowardice. That, to me is unforgivable, because of what the Autobots are still trying to be.