[ SECRET POST #2213 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2213 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 02 pages, 042 secrets from Secret Submission Post #316.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 1 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - request for assistance ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Sansa seems genuinely good-hearted, and she's not so much an archetype as a realistic subversion of one. She's prejudiced against ugly people, but that seems to be about it.

[(Anonymous)]

Sansa isn't good hearted, she's naive. She's extremely elitist for most of the first and second books, and almost totally self-absorbed.

If it seems like she means well, it's only because she wants to play the part of the fairy princess and experience all that entails (wealth, romance, legendary deeds). Because those same folk legends are often fables that contain moral messages, she has taken those lessons to heart... but only in the most unrealistic sense possible. For example, when she extolls that, "Knights should protect the weak and innocent." this is not because she feels that the weak and innocent deserve protecting, but because because it is the noble, fairytale, romantic ideal that she desires to see borne out in reality.

GRRM pretty much continuously points that out. Sansa, in most senses, is actually not a very good person when it comes down to it. She is simply less monstrous than many of her immediate peers.

[(Anonymous)]

I think this is a common interpretation from people who immediately felt that by subverting the expectation of fairy tale princess, GRRM wanted to undo everything they were supposed to represent.

To my immediately memory, Sansa is the only character outside of Jon, Ned, and Dany that does good deeds. Saving Ser Dontos' life is a pretty substantial one: she did it at risk to herself and for someone she would normally (and did) be disgusted at. She also calms the ladies during Blackwater, and I can't see any reason she'd do that then for their own good.

And even if she values good deeds because other people value good deeds in songs, I don't see how that doesn't make her a good person. That's generally how people are taught to empathize. She dismisses cruel and evil knights, despite being knights, because she values that they are good and kind. I think that describes her very well in GoT, but by the time she's seen Joffrey for who she is, she values kindness quite a bit, to others and herself.

This isn't to say she isn't rife with all the other flaws you mentioned, but I think saying she's not good hearted is a blow against GRRM's characterization and writing abilities.

[(Anonymous)]

And to my mind, it's actually a point in his favor to call Sansa not truly good hearted. Most people who are born into positions of priviledge don't realize their worldview is flawed or narrow, and display exactly that sort of idealized, self-serving morality. Sansa embodies this in a stereotypical way, yes, but it's still a very realistic personality even if it's meant to subvert an archetype. All those good deeds you pointed out were extensions of Sansa's desire to conform to that archetype; if you go back for a close reading you find the "courtesy is a lady's armor" and variations on that line/theme repeated throughout those scenes as a insight to her true intentions.

Furthermore, in both those scenes her "good deeds" are only beneficial to characters of high blood/station. Subtle, yes, but it also speaks to her lack of concern for people who do not possess any of her arbitrary markers of "gallantry". Peasants do not fit into her fairytales, therefore they do not concern her. This is just the opposite of Dany.

Besides that, though... there are also characters like Brienne to provide an expertly executed foil. I wouldn't say it's an insult to GRRM when he gives us a female character whose motivations are essentially the masculine equivalent of Sansa's ideas haha.

If anything, the only poor bit about it is that he turns around and plays Jon Snow totally straight. (god damn I hate that little twerp)

[(Anonymous)]

Of course peasants don't concern her. She's been locked away in one castle and then another, under the control of various people for who knows how long. As of right now, there is nothing the common folk can do for her and nothing she can do for them. She is too preoccupied with her current predicament to worry about them, and I don't blame her for that at all.

I think that when it all comes down to it, she is a good-hearted person. Shallow and still somewhat naive, yes, but overall she is kind. Maybe you don't see it, but I do, and I believe it will be more evident if she ever attains more power for herself later on in the series.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, don't get me wrong here. I it is highly probable that she will grow as a character into someone more concretely aware of the unjust nature of the world and less self-serving/self-absorbed. That's undoubtedly where GRRM is going with the character, and that's a spot-on reading... but that's more of a function of how GRRM likes to develop all of his female characters, it seems. They become better/stronger people only after some kind of terrible adversity, whereas characters like Jon or Rob Stark get to be automatically good/honorable/just/powerful without having to work for it.

What I'm saying is I don't think Sansa is meant to be a good person initially. Whether or not she develops into one is up to the whims of GRRM.

[(Anonymous)]

Ser Dontos, a high position? He was only slightly better than rabble. And as I pointed out, she did at risk to herself. I don't see how she could have fathomed he would be of any use to her, and as I said, he was also the type of person she would normally be repulsed by. In fact, she was repulsed by him later.

And I don't see how not concerning herself with peasants is a mark against her: as the other anon pointed out, she is no position to worry about them. She is in no position to help them, but she does help those she is in a position to.

I would consider a mark against GRRM because we're rife with characters who seem to embody goodness and kindness and courtly ideals but subvert it. Basically all of the Kingsguard and Rainbow Guard, excusing Brienne. Cersei is a better example of a character who is outwardly polite, kind, ladylike, but doesn't truly embody those traits. Sansa very consciously tries to, but the difference is she wants to because she wants to be a good person.

[(Anonymous)]

This.

There's also the part where she thinks to herself that if she is ever queen, she would want to be a kind queen who treats her subjects well.

[(Anonymous)]

See comment above.

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, my comment above doesn't totally cover it come to think of it, mostly, but not quite.

Sansa does say that if she ever becomes Queen she wants to treat her subjects well, but the addendum to that is, "I will make them love me." There's more than one interpretation to that, and it can still be argued that that's a self-serving sentiment: she desires the adoration befitting a fairytale Queen.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, so? I mean, you seem to have a pretty warped idea of what makes someone a good person. Almost no one helps someone completely selflessly, no matter who they are. Most people like the feeling of helping someone, and do it more often. Most people feel good making others feel good. This is usually the root of good deeds. It would be silly to say that, therefore, this person is not a good person. Unless they're good deeds are coming from a bad place, they are a good person.

Sansa likes making people happy. And again, this doesn't really explain her kindness to Dontos, who was not at all a high-ranking member of the court or at all able to benefit her.