[ SECRET POST #2215 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2215 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.


There is a moving gif in this post.


01.


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02.
[Rose McGowan]


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03.
[Puella Magi Madoka Magica]


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04.


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05.
[Fringe]


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06.


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07.
[Touhou Project / Axis Powers Hetalia: Romaheta / Kuroshitsuji / Homestuck]


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08.
[Being Human UK]


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09.
[Three Kingdoms 2010]


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10.
[Legend]


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11. http://i.imgur.com/fO4RU.jpg
[linked for kind of porny/suggestive postures of possibly underage character]


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12. http://i.imgur.com/T28p7.jpg
[linked for illustrated porny x 2 (clothed, but that doesnt do much)]


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13.
[Downton Abbey]


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14.
[Xia Junsu/Tarantellera]


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15.


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[ ----- SPOILERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]














16. [SPOILERS for Downton Abbey]



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17. [SPOILERS for Homestuck]



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[ ----- TRIGGERY SECRETS AHEAD ----- ]















18. [WARNING for abuse]



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19. [WARNING for abuse]



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20. [WARNING for incest]



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Notes:

Late day at work, sorry.

Secrets Left to Post: 00 pages, 000 secrets from Secret Submission Post #316.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 1 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 1 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ], [ 1 - template ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

I don't know anything about this series--explain, please?

Also, I do think that GoT has shades of misogyny or sexism that is not JUST explained by the setting or nature of the story, but good luck getting fans to acknowledge there could possibly be an issue and you're not just being a Sensitive Sally.

I would take GRRM over RJ any day.

[(Anonymous)]

Just saying.

[(Anonymous)]

Like?

[(Anonymous)]

For example, the magic system is different for men and for women. For women to access their part, they have to be calm and accepting and open themselves, whereas the men have to fight theirs and conquer it and uggggh what was wrong with you, RJ.

[(Anonymous)]

Which (be fair) is a very different kind of misogyny than the usual "GIRLS ARE WEAK LITTLE BABBIES" thing.

His presentation of gender can be hinky, but the basic point of view is that women and men are equally capable and equally necessary and his female characters are legitimately strong. That's not to say that there aren't things that are problematic (the presentation of homosexuality is terrible, for instance) but I think, in general, RJ's intentions were good, but his execution was frequently flawed. I mean, it's fundamentally a series about the equality of the sexes.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, no. It's falling into the misogyny trap of "women can't ever stand up for themselves or be assertive or they're bitches" bullshit. Women are meant to be always quiet and calm and never overly-emotional, or they're hysterical and men don't like that.

[(Anonymous)]

I don't think a reasonable reading of the series can really say that the female characters in it "can't ever stand up for themselves or be assertive or they're bitches". Or that they're meant to "be always quiet and calm and never overly-emotional." It's a feature of the magical system, which is unfortunate and an error for RJ, but it's not a feature of the characters, and it's clearly not what RJ thought about women. If you want to look at Moiraine, Siuane, Nynaeve, and Egwene and tell me that you've accurately described any single one of them, you're crazy. Or Faile, Berelaine, Aviendha, Cadsuane. Or even Elayne, who is assertive to the point of being kind of a bad character. It's true of the magic system because RJ made mistakes in executing his intention. It's in no way the message of the series as a whole.

It's funny, and also kind of frustrating, because in the fantasy readership as a whole, you hear some people talk about how the women are "all bitches" and terrible characters precisely BECAUSE they stand up to people and don't take shit, because fantasy readership is often terrible.

[(Anonymous)]

That's kind of why it bothered me, though. It's one of those things where trying to write Strong Women shows just how screwed up his definition is of what "strong" and "woman" mean. It's a world where women have power, but it's specifically, constantly written to be "the power to manipulate men and make them do what they want."

[(Anonymous)]

This is why I like the phrase "author's weird misogyny", because sometimes authors do weird-ass things with gender that, while they don't fit into our mainstream MRA-Sexist-Pig ideas of misogyny, still have something off about them. It's like the misogyny of a weird old male relative. Off-putting, but confusing as well?

[(Anonymous)]

Even when I was 16 and reading the first book because someone gave it to me, I thought there was a weird sexual allegory thing going on with the magic. Men had to conquer it, women had to submit to it to use it. And yeah, it was still an example of females having power (and there was the whole thing about how women could still use it but men couldn't because of whatever happened) and it's even good that he can show how people can find power/strength in a more calm and passive way and not just by conquering stuff - I just wish he hadn't assigned the two different types of power to different genders.

I don't really like the idea that women's power is supposed to come from submitting to or seducing and then influencing men - and, yes, I realize that can be the only or most practical way to accomplish something in a world where women aren't allowed much power or freedom, but the fact that he based MAGIC around that idea, makes it seem like he sees it as the truth about female nature, not just something that happens because of certain circumstances.

[(Anonymous)]

Oh, yeah, and it bugged me because it seemed like it was supposed to be an allegory for someone's ideal version of a heterosexual relationship - the man "conquers" the woman and dominates her, she submits to him and then has power to influence him. So they're really equal, just different!

I mean, that can make an interesting dynamic between two people, but I do get tired of hearing about how women should always be okay with that role (obviously, if a woman is, that's fine, but it's often presented as the right thing for all women). Personally, I find the idea of playing that role in a relationship extremely unappealing, so it's kind of depressing to me.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, women's power doesn't come just from influencing men. They can submit to the power, and then use it to fireball someone. And it's not the case that women aren't allowed much power or freedom in the world, or that they can only get it by seducing men - you have an entire group that's entirely female that's arguably the most powerful political force in the setting, you have a nation that is ruled by a queen with matrilineal succession, you have plenty of powerful women.

But I do agree that there are elements that are problematic, and one of those is that specific element of the magic system. And that too often Jordan does write women as gaining power through seduction. And that he likes spanking too much.

[something_greater]

It's... Also very blatantly based on the concepts of "yin" and "yang"? Like, he literally used the symbol for the Aes Sedai?

And yes, it's inherently somewhat problematic, but it's also going on three thousand years old, and is one of the most pervasive understandings of duality on earth?

[(Anonymous)]

I think most of the misogyny in GoT comes from the setting, and GRRM uses it to point out how crappy and unfair sexism/misogyny is, and add a layer of darkness to his world. His female characters are rich, relaistic and diverse, and show that the way they are treated in their world is wrong.

[truxillogical]

Very much this.

Is that too much for some people to read? Yes. For some folks, it's too uncomfortable, too unpleasant, or just downright triggering, and there is nothing wrong with that. But he doesn't present it as The Way Things Are As Decreed By The Universe. Just one of the crappy ways that crappy people use crappy reasons to do crappy things to other people.

[chardmonster]

I will not rest until every single genre is cleansed of references to gender differences and sexist things happening to female characters especially historical fiction

[(Anonymous)]

Fuck off, no one is saying there can be no references to gender. Also, we're talking about fantasy, not historical fiction.

I think you know that, though. You just don't like the discussion so you want to exaggerate the opinions you don't like to make the people espousing them look stupid, extreme, or overly politically-correct.

[(Anonymous)]

But strawmen make such lovely targets.

[(Anonymous)]

(chardmonster stuck on a little iPod touch)

GASP A JOKE SURELY THIS MEANS I THINK DISCUSSIONS OF SEXISM IN LIT IS INVALID

But seriously I'm tired of discussions of Martin being the most terrible sexist writer ever when Brienne exists and sword of truth was so shittily popular it got it's own show.

As someone whose had to study war at a grad level Im downright GLAD there's a writer of fantasy mentioning that women get raped in violent conflicts without turning it porny.

I am tired of writers who sanitize war.

[(Anonymous)]

I'd say the thing you said above about GoT would apply to WoT too - there are shades of sexism that can't be explained just by the setting or the nature of the story (and even then, I don't really think sexism is ever necessary in a fantasy work, since the author builds the world themselves and gets to decide how much sexism they want in their fictional society. Same thing goes for racism, etc). There's tendencies, details, mostly minor ones, but too many of them to be just a coincidence, but it's hard to explain it without sounding over-sensitive.

It's been a while since I read the books (I think I got halfway through book 7 before I sort of forgot to continue reading), but I do remember thinking that the author seemed a little too fond of having young female characters spanked or caned. And there's a tendency for specifically female rulers and authority figures to lose their power. And then there's the differences between men's magic and women's magic, which I think are kind of spoilery so I won't mention specifics here, but there's a lot of gender essentialism and stereotypes, especially "irrational, emotional women" and "strong, silent men".

The blurb on the back of the copy I read said something about how WoT is much better re:women than Tolkien's books, and I think that's exactly it. WoT is better gender-wise than a lot of the other fantasy that existed at the time, but that's not really saying much. (I think the individual books all pass the Bechdel test, because there are a bunch of women and they do talk to each other, but they talk so much about Rand al'Thor a book might fail the test on that point.)

[(Anonymous)]

I think they pass the Bechdel test regardless, although I haven't read through them with an eye towards that. There's just too many female characters and they get too much screen time for them not to pass.

[(Anonymous)]

Yeah, the spanking is... hard to explain away. That stuff was just weird.

[truxillogical]

Yes and no.

There may be a lot of women. But they're mostly the same woman. Or, well, the same two or three women.

And golly shucks, the poor menfolk just can't figger out how to handle 'em.

[(Anonymous)]

The Bechdel test isn't a "how feminist is this series" test, though. I think it's more of a tool to show people how non-inclusive fiction is of women as a whole.

For instance, I'm pretty sure the Harry Potter movies don't pass, even though it's possessing of some very strong female characters.

[miarrow]

One of the things that really bugs me is the treatment of sex workers (though the show has gone above and beyond in the gross department there), because we only get them through Tyrion's POV and he clearly doesn't get them at all. I like the series and I think a lot of it is explained by the setting (and doesn't apply directly to the amazing characters), but it doesn't mean it doesn't have it's flaws.

I'm also never really going to get over Cersei only getting a POV after she started cracking around the edges, she should have had one the same time as Jaime.