[ SECRET POST #2291 ]

[case]

⌈ Secret Post #2291 ⌋

Warning: Some secrets are NOT worksafe and may contain SPOILERS.

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Notes:

Secrets Left to Post: 01 pages, 020 secrets from Secret Submission Post #327.
Secrets Not Posted: [ 0 - broken links ], [ 0 - not!secrets ], [ 0 - not!fandom ], [ 0 - too big ], [ 0 - repeat ].
Current Secret Submissions Post: here.
Suggestions, comments, and concerns should go here.

Comments

[(Anonymous)]

Cersei is much more central to the important plots of the series and much more dynamic as a character than Gregor Clegane or Ramsay Bolton. She is much more influential than them and she is, pretty much, by any standard, a terrible human being - significantly more terrible than most of the major POV characters, I would argue. No, she's not a villain on the level of pure psychopathic monsters like Gregor or Ramsay, but she's still a villain.

I also don't see anything approaching the level of systemic sexism that you're indicating here - people seem to be pretty willing (as far as I've seen at least) to be pretty cool with most of the other female characters in the series. The only one that I've seen get a pronounced negative reaction in the way Cersei does is Catelyn - and while I would argue that is not good and in a lot of ways even more troubling than the reaction to Cersei, since Catelyn is a much more morally ambiguous character than Cersei, two examples don't really prove a theorem. (It used to be the case that Sansa got that sort of reaction, but I think that's changed, and I think fandom's changed).

ofc people shouldn't use slurs and that's always wrong, and I agree with you that Cersei is an interesting character, and I agree that ASOIAF fandom has its issues with sexism and misogyny. but just in terms of people liking or disliking her, it doesn't surprise me that people dislike someone who is so active and so fucked-up, and i don't think that dislike is a proof of or something necessarily caused by sexism. a lot of the times people don't like characters who are shitty people, sorry i guess.

just my 2c

[miarrow]

Yeah, but most of the characters hated on are female. It's great that you've found places in the fandom that don't react like that (and I would agree that while Cersei has some definite issues that I would totally understand people not liking her as a character, the amount of hate Cat gets for stuff that isn't even on par with Cersei is ridiculous), but I'm still seeing all the time gendered insults thrown at almost all of the female characters, while uplifting the males.

Take one stroll into Westeros.org and you'll see what I mean (although seriously don't if you've found a safe place in fandom, it's not worth it).

I just think 90% of the characters are likeable to me, because I can understand their motivations and they're fully realized characters... doesn't mean they're likeable as people or anything, but especially since Cersei's position has a lot to do with the way she is fighting against the misogynistic backdrop in the books (like her ideas getting co-opted by Tyrion and her paranoia being justified... because she was right) and a lot of the arguments I do see aren't about the bad things she does, but the bad things that people feel she does as a woman or a mother, which is where the problem is for me.

[(Anonymous)]

westeros.org shouldn't even be mentioned in mainstream convos, the same way 4chan or reddit isn't. they don't deserve to count.

[(Anonymous)]

From what I have experienced via the show fandom:

Cersei, Catelyn, Sansa, Ros, Shae, Talisa -- all get a fuck-ton of hatred directed their way and the last three are minor characters.

The first three have a lot of stans who give them a fuck-ton of love but most of that is in response to the hatred all three got from book fans coming into the show with a lot of hatred toward those characters in the books.

So while it is certainly possible people dislike Cersei simply because she isn't a good person, other people dislike her because she isn't a dude/doesn't live up to their definition of what a female character should be. (Arya, for instance, seems to be pretty loved by the show fandom, as does Brienne.)

[(Anonymous)]

Nope. That's not the fandom/rationale at all.

Ros isn't even in the books, nor is Talisa~ as such. That's why they get "hate" (I would balk at calling most of the criticism towards Talisa "hate" if you actually read it). Albeit, I do not ever read westeros.org or imdb. I see no hate toward Shae in the TV fandom at all. Everyone seems to love her now they completely changed her character and made her all sweet and wonderful and BFFs with Sansa.

Cersei gets more sympathy from show!only fans than those who have also read the books, true. Catelyn gets disproportionate and ridiculous levels of hate whether the fans are from the books or TV show first. Same as Sansa. There are shit tonnes of Sansa and Cat haters that have developed solely thanks to the show (same as Theon) -- mostly by people who have never read the books and have no idea what's to come (or the depth of character that these characters had in the books versus the butchering the adaption has done at times).

The Sansa and Cat love-fest is not merely a reaction~ to hate. Fans liked these characters before on their own merit, but they are very vocal now to counteract the disgusting spew that comes from TV and book fans alike -- mostly show fans. I don't think it's a fair assessment to say that all Sansa/Cat/Cersei stans are only that way (or have grown in such numbers) as a backlash to book-based!hate. It may appear that way because they're so vocal and dedicated to defending a character but that is not the REASON they like the character.

There is an overwhelming misunderstanding of female characters by show fans -- and I blame the show's writing itself for that. It perpetuates it. I don't really think they've done proper justice to a single main female character, especially POVs and thrown a heck of a lot of minor female characters under the bus as well. (I'm maybe holding my breath for Margaery. They may pull that off... but it's too soon to tell.) As a result of poor depictions of these characters, the fans develop giant gaps in their understanding -- and so the book fans (mostly) have stepped up to fill in those gaps and attempt to defend the characters. That doesn't mean they didn't like the characters until they felt the need to defend them. Why would you care enough to get that involved in defending them if you didn't already love them?

But I will say the majority of bile I see directed to Cersei has little to do with her actual villainous actions. It is primarily her having a vagina - therefore she is a whore, slut, bitch, cunt, etc. All the slurs. Usually with no attempt to even qualify why these slurs are even remotely justified. (Not that slurs can be justified, but there is very little reasoning for using them at all. Just a slur, that's it.)